Toeside chatter and skipping - why?

[Fastskiguy]

Got a problem with toeside chattering and skipping. What is up with this? It starts at the fall line and ends when I stop moving. I will try to post a video when I can but it might be awhile :( It's on hard snow only. I almost never skip or chatter on my heelside

I know this is because I am asking the board to do something it (she) doesn't want to do....but do I need more edging, less edging, or just less pressure? (I can't believe the answer is less pressure)

I'm running my boot shafts pretty upright (4 rear, 5 front on Raichle boots) so I'm thinking maybe over edging?

Any comments ya'll have would be appreciated. Thanks :)

[Silver Bullet]

I suspect that there is not enough pressure on the back foot, and this prevents the back half of the board to track with the front. I seam to recall that this happened to me a time or two until I figured out how to evenly distribute my weight on both feet. The imbalance in my case was due to heal lift on both feet. Fin suggested that I lift the toe on the front foot, and it centered me well over the board, with added benefit of no front leg burning.

[Louis]

its tough to judge like this, but when it was happening to me it was that I didnt do my body rotation correctly, or wasnt well centered on the board (being sitting more on the tail)

it also happened to me when i was "folding" the nose of my old board (2 much pressure and it was getting off for some reason)

[Fastskiguy]

I just wanna look like Silver Bullet's avitar LOL! That is cool!

I think my weight is biased to the rear a little-it seems a little easier to keep up with the board on the heelside. I have a toe lift and some front leg quad burning (Not here in the midwest but on bigger slopes). But I've only been at this one season and most of last year was getting my **** together so there could be a fitness issue on the quad burning.

But both fore and aft bias issues and rotational deficiency (or toxicity) are ideas I hadn't thought of.]

[queequeg]

This happens to me when I'm tired, and begin to lose my technique - specifically when I'm not centered over the board (frontside-backside, not fore-aft) and/or not focusing my face, hands, shoulders and hips into the momentum of my carve. Otherwise, I would check to see that that I am low enough on the board to expand into depressions, and absorb bumps though the entire length of my turns ... but I'd suspect that this is more attributable to centering. I would try thinking about hip-checking the slope with (what would be) your trailing hip (without folding at the waist) as you turn toeside and see if that helps ... when this happens to me it is mostly on the backside, so ymmv.

Hope that helps?

[bobdea]

something is very wrong!

I used to play with stances allot and on softboots if my stance is to narrow something similar happens. I doubt this is the case unless you have your stance width at like 16 inches or something.

[mr_roboteye]

What kind of board, how long is it, how stiff is it, and what is your stance width?

later,

Dave R.

[Fastskiguy]

What kind of board, how long is it, how stiff is it, and what is your stance width?

later,

Dave R.

A donek FC11 171 7.5 stiffness and a donek behle GS board 175 9.0 stiffness, stance is 21" on each, angles are higher on the FCII, get about the same amount of chatter on each.

I like the idea of moving my trailing hip towards the snow-might help keep my weight bias a little more forward too.

[Silver Bullet]

I'm already assuming that your boots fit and your edges are in good shape.... How about this one?

Bending at the waist instead of knees

or

Angulating too much and not decambering the board

or

Boot out

or

You boot is not centered on the board - Too much space between the boot toe and the edge - angles too steep

or

You are initiating you turn too late and forcing your board across the hill while you momentum is still carrying you down the fall line.

I have a hard time thinking the issue is resulting from being back too far on the board.

[carvedog]

For the type of turn you are doing you need a higher board angle. In other words drive knees harder into snow earlier to generate a higher (closer to perpendicular to the snow ) angle with the board. Feel pressure in tongues of boots earlier and add more shape to the turn. So instead of pointing down the run point across the run. Too much speed, not enough shape and flat board = skipping. Doesn't matter SCR, or boots.

If you are reaching toward the snow with your hands this causes center of mass (COM) to not be over the board. FYI you cannot pressure the tongues of the boots if you are reaching over. If COM is not over your feet you cannot pressure the tongues as well.

Could be wrong but stop leaning, start driving knees. Ease into this. If you don't have shaped turn along with this, you can load board and have a spectacular launch.

Best of luck.

[wavechaser]

I've seen this happen before when the center point between the bindings is ahead of the center point of the edge contact length. When you are on your heelside the center point between your heels is behind the center point of the edge contact length - but when you go toeside the center point between your toes is forward of the center point of edge contact length. Not sure I said that clearly - make sense? What happens on the toeside in this situation is not enogh pressure on the tail and it starts jumping...if BOTH bindings are mounted in their respective furthest forward insert packs I would almost guarantee you will get this effect.

Are you familar with the concept of binding "setback"?

[nekdut]

This one helped me:

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/toesideproblem.cfm

[Dan]

This one helped me:

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/toesideproblem.cfm

Looks like a bunch of the image files are missing from that tutorial. Jack?

[carvedog]

Looks like a bunch of the image files are missing from that tutorial. Jack?

Forgot about this tutorial. Good stuff. The images were fine on my laptop.

[queequeg]

something is very wrong!

I used to play with stances allot and on softboots if my stance is to narrow something similar happens. I doubt this is the case unless you have your stance width at like 16 inches or something.

I ride a 16" stance and this doesn't happen to me - (at least not on the frontside. Sometimes it happens backside but that is usually when I'm tired and let my technique get sloppy).

One thing that I thought was interesting after looking at the images (particularly the second image) is that you appear to start chattering *immediately* after transitioning from hell to toeside. Whenever I experience this problem (again, on my backside) it is usually well into the arc. Makes me wonder if what silver bullet said is the issue:



Angulating too much and not decambering the board

...

You are initiating you turn too late and forcing your board across the hill while you momentum is still carrying you down the fall line

Given the fact that you are chattering right away, rather than losing it later on, I wonder if one or both of those two are the culprit.

[pebu]

One of the things that helped me get my toeside dialed in (far from all the way dialed in, but it's feeling a whole lot better) is to take my trailing hand and reach out towards where I want to go. Basically reach out for the spot about 5 feet before your board goes there. I think it helps keep my hips in check and gets me to pressure the nose just right. Now if I could only keep my front heelside from washing out...

[mr_roboteye]

A donek FC11 171 7.5 stiffness and a donek behle GS board 175 9.0 stiffness, stance is 21" on each, angles are higher on the FCII, get about the same amount of chatter on each.

I think the answer is very simple. Your stance is too wide. Too see if this is the case, when you do a toeside turn, concentrate on bringing your knees together during your toeside. I'm only telling you to do this as a diagnosis technique to see if this is the problem. You shouldn't ride like this all the time. When you bring your knees together, since your boots and bindings are rigid you will be forcing the board to bend into it's decambered arc.

If it doesn't chatter when you "bend" it by cheating your knees together, this tells you that there isn't enough of your weight concentrated at the norrowest part of the board.

Since your username is fastskiguy I assume that you ski. Whether you're carving a ski or a snowboard, they both work exactly the same. Look at where the boot is mounted on a ski. Directly over the narrowest point of the ski. If you move the weight too far away from the apex of the sidecut (the narrowest point of the board / ski) it's going to chatter.

I know some people will probably flame me for telling you to narrow your stance because wide stances provide an increase in fore / aft stability, but you can get too ridiculous with the width.

I ride between 18 1/2" and 19" on boards between 185 and 190cm, and about 16 5/8" on a 162. Never chattered.

later,

Dave R.

[Fastskiguy]

This one helped me:

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/toesideproblem.cfm

Oh man, I think I look like some of the square headed dudes!

[Pow]

"toeside problem" article will work wonders for the counter-rotatation that causes toeside skidding or chatter like this.

with "bad" technique, looking down the slope causes you to twist to your limit when crossing the fall line on toeside, so your body is pulling one way while you try to push the board the other way with your legs. If you used to ski, then this problem could be carried over from ski technique, where looking down the fall line is common.

It also looks like it could be boot out too (though if this is at the apex of a deep carve, it would probably result in a total washout rather than skipping). It wouldnt hurt to check your binding angles and make sure your boots arent over the edge too far though.

[D-Sub]

Oh man, I think I look like some of the square headed dudes!

as in reaching for the snow?

honestly, getting someone to diagnose your problem by looking at your tracks is not going to be accurate. Post a video of you riding, or at least some still shots.

21" is a pretty wide stance unless you're fairly tall.

[wavechaser]

as in reaching for the snow?

honestly, getting someone to diagnose your problem by looking at your tracks is not going to be accurate. Post a video of you riding, or at least some still shots.

21" is a pretty wide stance unless you're fairly tall.

We're getting closer...too wide a stance is a possibility I guess, but doubtful it is causing not enough de-cambering on a 171 or 175 at a 21" stance. I ride 20" on a 160 slalom board with no problems bending the board, and 21" on my 185. And if that was the case you would probably experience it BOTH heelside and toeside. The thing I mentioned before about having the bindings too far forward will cause the same problem roboteye mentions - but be much WORSE on the toeside because the toes are simply further forward than your heels. I'm not saying this is DEFINITELY the problem, but just want to make SURE your equipment is set up correctly before diagnosing any technique problems.

And D is right - VIDEO is the way to go on this one! :)

[Fastskiguy]

as in reaching for the snow?

honestly, getting someone to diagnose your problem by looking at your tracks is not going to be accurate. Post a video of you riding, or at least some still shots.

21" is a pretty wide stance unless you're fairly tall.

I'll try to get a video if I can get on snow on Sunday and get a short shot of my setup too. I'm 6' 3", the 21" stance feels OK but I might try 20" just for kicks this weekend too.

I'm pretty sure it's due to the body position tho. I don't think my form is super bad but the video will tell.

[D-Sub]

at 6'3 21" is most likely PERFECTLY reasonable. Try 20.5, or 20, but (admitting that I am in no way an expert or a racer, but I've ridden a bit) 21" is not unreasonable in the slightest. Mike Tovino rides wide stances and he's like...I think 5'11" or 6' even. I ride 20.5 or .75...somewhere around there...

I'm sorry to rehash if you answered this already...when the chatter occurs is it the nose, waist, tail, or whole board "bouncing"?

[Jim Callen]

I think the answer is very simple. Your stance is too wide. Too see if this is the case, when you do a toeside turn, concentrate on bringing your knees together during your toeside. I'm only telling you to do this as a diagnosis technique to see if this is the problem. You shouldn't ride like this all the time. When you bring your knees together, since your boots and bindings are rigid you will be forcing the board to bend into it's decambered arc.

If it doesn't chatter when you "bend" it by cheating your knees together, this tells you that there isn't enough of your weight concentrated at the norrowest part of the board.

Since your username is fastskiguy I assume that you ski. Whether you're carving a ski or a snowboard, they both work exactly the same. Look at where the boot is mounted on a ski. Directly over the narrowest point of the ski. If you move the weight too far away from the apex of the sidecut (the narrowest point of the board / ski) it's going to chatter.

I know some people will probably flame me for telling you to narrow your stance because wide stances provide an increase in fore / aft stability, but you can get too ridiculous with the width.

I ride between 18 1/2" and 19" on boards between 185 and 190cm, and about 16 5/8" on a 162. Never chattered.

later,

Dave R.


See, now I totally disagree with this. Never, ever bend your knees together. It does nothing except lessen the amount of room you have to form a solid base with your legs. You are effectively compromising your stability over the board.

For me personally, the chatter you see late in the turn is caused by not enough pressure on the rear half of your edge. As you progress through your turn, you want to shift your weight back somewhat, almost like the board is rocketing throu the turn out from underneath you, or at least that's what it feels like for me.

[Fastskiguy]

at 6'3 21" is most likely PERFECTLY reasonable. Try 20.5, or 20, but (admitting that I am in no way an expert or a racer, but I've ridden a bit) 21" is not unreasonable in the slightest. Mike Tovino rides wide stances and he's like...I think 5'11" or 6' even. I ride 20.5 or .75...somewhere around there...

I'm sorry to rehash if you answered this already...when the chatter occurs is it the nose, waist, tail, or whole board "bouncing"?

It's like the whole board is skipping and bouncing. Usually I bend at the waist big time, put my hands down, and vibrate to a jolting stop. I've found a video from last year, I'll post some shots from that (or the whole thing). I'm pretty sure it's body position.

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you're inclined to bend at the waist to fix the problem, I'm thinking you may already be too bent. It's easier to get your weight over the edge on heelside as your body is bending that way naturally. Toeside, you have to work to get that angulation.

[D-Sub]

It's like the whole board is skipping and bouncing. Usually I bend at the waist big time, put my hands down, and vibrate to a jolting stop. I've found a video from last year, I'll post some shots from that (or the whole thing). I'm pretty sure it's body position.

problem solved, imo.

and while I don't agree with "never put your knees together" (mine always end up together in heel turns, and so do a lot of the very, very good riders Ive seen) the idea that banging them together somehow makes the board arc has been argued and effectively disproven imo.

To me it sounds like you're leaning too much, forcing the board out of the turn on toesides. I have a nagging tendency to do this as well. I suspect that part of the reason we (you, me, others with this problem) might find toeside turns working better is that it's easier to "sit" on a heelside. Keeping your upper body upright, shoulders parallel, and legs out in front is much easier on heelside.

I find that when I focus on one facet almost completely, I make better turns. That one facet is keeping my shoulders parallel to the snow. How to do this?

On a toeside turn, lead hand (left for regular, right for goofy) toward lead boot cuff, trailing hand parallel to snow as if dragging on it, but not. This forces your shoulders into the correct position, and forces your upper body to follow. Form and function combine. Opposite for heel turns. Trailing (right for regular) hand reaches toward thigh/boot cuff (rail if you're flexible), lead hand (left for regular) elevated, parallel to snow.

Here are some pics that show this:

http://www.alpinecarving.com/ses06/mon/5387.jpg

http://www.alpinecarving.com/ses06/mon/5585.jpg

This one is almost leaning too much it seems, but still...
http://www.alpinecarving.com/ses06/mon/5589.jpg

And here is Bryan Sutherland rocking a heel turn. I admire his style immensely.

http://www.alpinecarving.com/ses06/mon/5667.jpg

Yes, it's a heel turn, but the concept is the same. Trailing hand could easily grab the rail if he wanted, and lead hand is skimming the snow. NOT because he reached to get there but because he is uber-compressed.

[D-Sub]

Interestingly enough, looking through the photos at

http://www.alpinecarving.com/ses06/

it seems that the vast majority of "excellent technique" shots are heelside!

[D-Sub]

a good one illustrating entering the turn on toeside:

http://www.alpinecarving.com/ses06/tue/6151.jpg

[D-Sub]

another good example (note knees together ;))

http://www.alpinecarving.com/ses06/tue/6180.jpg

[D-Sub]

and another. Picture this fella in a slightly more aggressive mode, sunk a little lower in (compressed, not leaning). His left hand could grab his calf or boot, and his right could be parallel to the snow (along with his shoulders)

http://www.alpinecarving.com/ses06/tue/6182.jpg

I'm trying to find the pics of STEPH, too.

[D-Sub]

Pat sent the "Core Four" article to me. This pic is from page 2:

[wavechaser]

I'll try to get a video if I can get on snow on Sunday and get a short shot of my setup too. I'm 6' 3", the 21" stance feels OK but I might try 20" just for kicks this weekend too.

I'm pretty sure it's due to the body position tho. I don't think my form is super bad but the video will tell.

Make sure the center of your stance is BEHIND the midpoint of the edge contact length, or no body position will make a difference...good luck! :)

[D-Sub]

Make sure the center of your stance is BEHIND the midpoint of the edge contact length, or no body position will make a difference...good luck! :)

What's wrong with being perfectly centered? Jack's setup articles describe centering, although some boards want to be ridden forward (MADD apparently?) and some behind (coiler?)

[wavechaser]

What's wrong with being perfectly centered? Jack's setup articles describe centering, although some boards want to be ridden forward (MADD apparently?) and some behind (coiler?)

Yo D, I explained this in an earlier post in this thread so I won't go over all of that now, but...perfectly centered is fine, forward of center is not...and he is not on a Madd. He is a fairly new carver so I feel some setback in stance, especially toeside, would be beneficial on the boards he is using. I was always taught, as a snowboard instructor and coach, to fix problems like this by FIRST making sure the equipment setup is correct, especially with a new rider - that is all I am suggesting, I clearly said that it may not be the problem. You can't fix technique problems on a bad setup. I've see new riders with the bindings mounted in the two most forward sets of inserts have this problem, that's all. Good luck Fastskiguy - hope this and or the video analysis helps! :)

-Rick

[D-Sub]

You can't fix technique problems on a bad setup.

damn fine point. From the ground up. Sorry if i missed your post earlier!

[inkaholic]

My attempt to help:
Try to lower your COG (bend knees more).

Make sure to set your edge well at the top of the turn, then you have a solid platform to stand on thru the middle and bottom of the turn where the g-forces are highest.

Don't "park and ride" meaning keep your feet moving through the turn. You can push your feet forward thru the turn thus adding more pressure to the tail near the end of the turn.

I know many are against it but for me and my riders, keep your knees apart and let them flex in the natural direction that your binding is set at. This keeps pressure on the tail and doesn't create any strange and sometimes painful angles in the knees.

Ink

[wavechaser]

damn fine point. From the ground up. Sorry if i missed your post earlier!

No worries - Fastskiguy is certainly not going to suffer for lack of information and help on this one! LOL!!

[wavechaser]

My attempt to help:
Try to lower your COG (bend knees more).

Make sure to set your edge well at the top of the turn, then you have a solid platform to stand on thru the middle and bottom of the turn where the g-forces are highest.

Don't "park and ride" meaning keep your feet moving through the turn. You can push your feet forward thru the turn thus adding more pressure to the tail near the end of the turn.

I know many are against it but for me and my riders, keep your knees apart and let them flex in the natural direction that your binding is set at. This keeps pressure on the tail and doesn't create any strange and sometimes painful angles in the knees.

Ink

Mostly good info in this thread FSG...but listen to this one...good stuff as always. :biggthump

[canuckcarver]

excellent tips in here and i think those pics might just help out my posture on the slopes :biggthump :biggthump

[mr_roboteye]

See, now I totally disagree with this. Never, ever bend your knees together. It does nothing except lessen the amount of room you have to form a solid base with your legs. You are effectively compromising your stability over the board.

Read my whole post. I guess you missed the part where I said "as a means of diagnosis, I don't recommend riding like this all the time."

Dave R.

[Fastskiguy]

Man, you guys are giving me a lot of info. Here's some still pics from last March from Breckenridge. Now I've improved....but I think you can see the alignment issue at the top of the turn. Things improve a little as it progresses, but getting into the turn better should help.

[Fastskiguy]

Man, you guys are giving me a lot of info. Here's some still pics from last March from Breckenridge. Now I've improved....but I think you can see the alignment issue at the top of the turn. Things improve a little as it progresses, but getting into the turn better should help.
picture 2

[Fastskiguy]

picture 2

So with this "less than ideal" entry, I'm thinking it could cause skipping by the time the board hits the fall line.

[D-Sub]

That first pic looks like you're planning on doing a pete rose into home! I think that's gonna be the source of your problems.

Where do you ride? Maybe you can get some one-on-one?

[Fastskiguy]

That first pic looks like you're planning on doing a pete rose into home! I think that's gonna be the source of your problems.

Where do you ride? Maybe you can get some one-on-one?

Wisconsin but the last two pics were on peak 10 at Breck. I get out west to Colorado or Idaho 2-3 times per year, usually summit co or the aspen area and the boise area and sun valley. Just got back from a 5 day trip to summit co last week and met Dave Kemp for a couple of runs, that was fun!

[corey_dyck]

I'd had a similar issue and found I had too much weight on the front foot and bending at the waist.

A tip that helped me to stop bending at the waist was imagining holding a bag of something in your trailing hand. Work hard to keep that bag off the snow even in deep turns. It feels like you have your inside shoulder stupidly high but you don't - you'll be more like the photos D-Sub posted.

[NateW]

Looks to me like your upper body is twisted wrong in the first picture - try to aim your chest more in the direction of the nose of the board, rather than facing the snow. Keeping your trailing hand forward should help with that.

Also try leaning more on your front foot throughout the turn.
And then try leaning more on your back foot. :) See which helps more.

And double-check that you're not booting out, just to be sure.

[Cuban Carving Gooding]

OK I read the first page of this post and D sub is the person<man>. Knees together all the time if you race for A living this might not apply. Most of us do not race so don't try to ride like them. IT IS NOT THE SAME! so just try what D-Sub And I think will work. Knees together and if I might add put the board on edge { more than you ever have way over } your trailing arm should be in front of your body { That will transfers the weight on the edge of the board and it will hold} you will see how it holds. Free Lessons at the Big Mountain MT or Heavenly NV . OK I did look at Page two. And Wavechaser hase A good point. This could be A new rider. The first thing he needs to do is trust the board {So much about riding is in your head} put it on edge{Bend knees not all waist} put the board on edge all the way over even if you don't recover see what it will do and keep doing it. When you get the feel of that you can start doing what we are telling you to do. Silver Bullet has good advice and A cool avatar. He can get away with his trailing arm being back because of the board angle. The more on edge the more forgiving . The snow will also help or hurt that style. If you are on hard pack{ East coast hard pack} your body must be in near perfect position to hold the edge. You can be doing A large number of things to make it chatter. If I could see you ride I can help you more.:biggthump

[D-Sub]

D sub is the person<man>.

Actually, no. I am the android.
</man>

[philw]

Maybe we should have a separate thread where people can vote on what they do with their knees. I think the kelly-style knees thing went out way back and although you can ride perfectly well that way it's not what most of us who went through that continued to to. I'm not sure that I could shove my knees together anyway... my boots are pretty stiff.

I'm in the "put the bindings where the manufacturer tells you" camp. Usually that's bang in the middle, although some boards have set-back built in.

As people said, from the pictures it looks like a stance issue more than anything else. Maybe you're worrying too much about style & form and not enough about just riding. That is: a lot of people spend time bending at the waist and trying to touch the snow... I think that's getting effect and cause he wrong way around, like old skiers who used to force their feet together.

So I'd set the stance where the manufacturer says you should, then forget about how low you are, put some loud music on and see how fast you can corner.

It's possible to "overload" the nose on some boards if you push them too hard, which can make for a bit of chattering. That's easy to address though: slow down or switch to a bigger board.

[D-Sub]

Maybe we should have a separate thread where people can vote on what they do with their knees.

sadist.

[Bobby Buggs]

We talked about this last year, I just can’t find it. I do remember part of the fix was not to have your but sticking out. Toe side really relies on hip angulation

[wavechaser]

sadist.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[D.T.]

My attempt to help:
Try to lower your COG (bend knees more).

Make sure to set your edge well at the top of the turn, then you have a solid platform to stand on thru the middle and bottom of the turn where the g-forces are highest.

Don't "park and ride" meaning keep your feet moving through the turn. You can push your feet forward thru the turn thus adding more pressure to the tail near the end of the turn.

I know many are against it but for me and my riders, keep your knees apart and let them flex in the natural direction that your binding is set at. This keeps pressure on the tail and doesn't create any strange and sometimes painful angles in the knees.

InkMostly good info in this thread FSG...but listen to this one...good stuff as always. :biggthump
For some reason this guy actually know what he is talking about. Too bad he can't ride?!? ;)

[inkaholic]

For some reason this guy actually know what he is talking about. Too bad he can't ride?!? ;)

Well, at least I was able to help you, Big Mario, Shelly and others.

Remember, those who can't do teach.

Ink

[inkaholic]

Now that I have seen the pictures, DON'T bend at the waist. DON'T reach for the snow.

Angulation is your friend and will drive all the forces into the snow for more edge hold.

Keep those feet moving.

If in CO visit Loveland for a day with our crew. Check the ride board.

Hope all this info that everyone is feeding you for the holidays helps. Now get out and try this stuff.

Ink

[SpeedracerJVB]

I don't usually contribute to these threads simply because there are so many opinions being thrown around (no tone with that comment) that I can't imagine mine making any difference however I think that I may be of some service on this particular issue.

<O:p></O:p>

I am a racer and for the better part of my career I have had some significant issues with my toe side turns. Nail my heel sides but I can still struggle with the death chatter on my toe side at times. It seems that some of the solutions that I have read sort of complicate the issue. Yes, a lot of the things mentioned in this thread can contribute to ineffective edging and thus loss of contact but generally speaking when your board begins to chatter it means that your edge is losing contact with the surface of the snow. Your board can lose contact for several reasons however if it’s happening on a consistent basis it usually means that your body is out of position and thus your weight is not over your edge. Frustrating to consider, yes, again I have dealt with this issue for a long time and at speed but the solution never changes and every time I listen to one of my coaches and follow through, the problem is solved.<O:p

<O:p></O:p>

First, and again I am saying this with no tone but I see a lot of free carvers out there squaring their shoulders to the nose of the board. This is ok if you are riding a forgiving/softer board and not carrying any significant amount of speed however once you increase your velocity and/or get on a stiffer board this can be a recipe for yucky turns. Try keeping your shoulders parallel with your hips, your hips should be parallel with your feet and thus your body aligned. This might be slightly counterintuitive for some as it's a fairly normal response to want to face down the hill when you are riding however squaring your shoulders can take pressure off your edge and can contribute to ones propensity to lean which brings me to my next suggestion.<O:p

<O:p></O:p>

The reason that you are probably having an issue with your toe side and not your heel side is quite simply that it's more difficult to lean in on your heel side turn. It's not a natural motion to lean in on a heel side turn and even if your shoulders are squared up your weight can still be effectively over your edge enough so that the board will hold. Squaring your shoulders on your heel side can contribute to other issues however for this exercise we’ll assume that it’s ok. It is however completely natural to lean into a toe side turn with your rear shoulder ie. Drop your shoulder towards the ground. What this does effectively is reduce the your edge pressure and depending on the slope, the board, your speed and the conditions your toe side edge can begin to lose contact with the snow which is never a good thing.
<O:p
<O:p> </O:p>

Solution: Keep your body aligned, this will challenge your balance a little and feel a little awkward at first, you might even feel as if you are going to tip over but stick with it, your turns will be more balanced, more powerful and far more efficient as a result. Try to keep your knees separated, again this can be a struggle for some but remember that your knees are the driving force in your toe side turn and you want as much edge pressure as you can get so separating your knees will help keep your body aligned helping you fight the propensity to square up and it will increase your effective edge pressure. When your knees come together you are concentrating your pressure on a finite portion of your edge, when your knees are separated you are increasing that area. Your edge runs the length of the board for a reason, use it. The other thing you might want to try is reaching. On your toe side turn take your front hand and reach for your heel edge (just over the heel of your front boot). Try to do this without squaring your shoulders to the nose of your board. This will help you maintain your edge pressure over your board instead of over the snow and it will help keep your shoulder parallel to the slope. You can do this on your heel side as well, simply take your rear hand and reach for the toe of your rear boot. Just a warning, hold on cause you are going to be generating some power now and you might come out of your turns a little in the back seat. To counter this, stay balanced and centered over your board. I could go on and on but I want to keep this simple for you. Give it a try, I am certain it will solve your toe side chatter issue.<O:p

[LeeW]

Pat sent the "Core Four" article to me. This pic is from page 2:

oh my, i totally forgot i have this article. im gonna have to dig it up. its one hell of an article!!

[queequeg]

oh my, i totally forgot i have this article. im gonna have to dig it up. its one hell of an article!!

Anyone want to PDF this article and put it online somewhere?

[Blue Bird]

JVB

Thanks for the description in your post, it really helped me to identify some problems in my turns.
Between this and some on hill coaching from Ink, I have a refined thinking of my turn
Thanks Guys, you rock
Justin

[Vahur]

I'm not any authority and not so good rider myself, so take my advice with grain of salt. But hey, it's free! :)
When people say: bend the knees, then remember to drive your legs forward in the same time (use ankle joints), do not keep shins straight and drop hips to bend knees. Latter requires bending at waist and moving upper body forward in order keep balance and results in toilet seating. If you look at provided pics, then notice, how much in "correct" ones knees are pushed forward and upper body remains straight (as in picture from article) and in "wrong ones" (e.g. from "The Toeside Problem" article) shins are mostly straight and upper body bent forward.
Too stiff boots (e.g. with Deeluxe 5-position leaning mechanism locked, on cold day!) could "dictate" forward leaning with upper body, as they don't allow enough forward flex from ankles.
When I hit slopes in this winter then I try to remember 3 advices I learned from books and forums this year: centered, aligned, bend knees forward. Hopefully it will help my technique...

[Bobby Buggs]

Most common failure is Over rotation. I have found when I lose a toe side I am looking at the hill not at the nose of my board or out in front of me and my inside hand is on the hill instead of just off the snow.

[NateW]

I feel victim to this earlier today, just from trying to crank a toeside that was faster/tighter than the snow would support. If you look at your tracks from the lift, are your toesides generally tighter than your heelsides? If so, that alone might help explain why this happens more often on your toes than on your heels.

[Bobby Buggs]

If you think about it, you can only rotate so far on a heel side, but on the toe you can go way too far

[Fastskiguy]

Thanks again for all of the tips guys, I think my form has improved with some of these ideas :) Managed to survive a NASTAR course with this off-camber toeside turn....most of the time LOL!

[Jack Michaud]

Jumping in late here, I don't know if anyone has said this. You're probably not committing to your toeside carve completely. Chatter often happens when you try to make a carve too big and too fast for the sidecut radius of your board. Believe it or not, the faster you go, the smaller the carve your board wants to make. This means you have to be really on it, angulate like crazy, feel the crease form in your downhill hip, crank up the edge angle, and drive the carve around all the way to the finish (perpendicular to the fall line).

edit - good looking pic there. Your hips are down, that's good. Hips up, ass in the air = bad.

[Fastskiguy]

I think setup might make a difference. I've got some Raichle boots and have been running the front at "5" and the rear at "4" (1-5 is the range of ankle flex with 1 being the most flexed position and 5 being the most upright position). I don't exactly ride straight legged but I like to have a fairly tall stance "and use my skeleton to take the pressure, not my muscles" <-ski instructor speak. I *think* I have less of a problem with more flex in my ankles and less edging on toeside.

So with that upright stance I think I'm over edging and skipping. But I need some of YOU to put your boots at 4-5 and crank some aggressive toeside turns on really hard snow and see if you skip too. That'd help me out, that'd be good for me if you could do that, really :)

My theory is under edging=skidding, over edging=skipping. Somebody try it and write back :) Thanks!

[carvedog]

For me skipping = too much pressure on the edge.
Usually this means ( for my style of riding ) that I don't have enough turn shape to handle the edge angle and speed.
For many this happens on heel side but comes from not having or making a complete toeside turn. That means a toe turn that is finished to the point of speed control.

If you feel like you accelerate when carving toeside and go back to heelside for speed control that can cause a lot of force when you come heelside. ( How many have been guilty - aye. The ayes have it.) Especially if you are rotating the lead shoulder back to crank it more quickly, that doesn't let side cut add the shape it wants to ride in.

On toeside skipping it seems like often comes from setting edge angle too high too early. And again without a lot of turn shape. If you are down the fall line and throw the board sideways without adding some shape then you will start to get tossed around a lot too.

My primary perception of movement when I am carving the hardest, is of lateral movement, not necessarily down the fall line at all.

My two cents. Sure wish I could go apply these theories right now. Stuck at the store. Blue bird to partly cloudy, 28-30F and the mtn a scant 1/2 mile away.

[Fastskiguy]

In my current setup I never get heelside chatter and I feel just invincible on the heelside. I wonder if guys that are chattering heelside have a lot of ankle flex (boots set to say 1 or 2) and thus "over" edging?

[inkaholic]

Thanks again for all of the tips guys, I think my form has improved with some of these ideas :) Managed to survive a NASTAR course with this off-camber toeside turn....most of the time LOL!

Turn your body into the turn. In this pic you are counter rotated a lot. That won't help you to turn toeside.

Ink

[Fastskiguy]

I just re-read this whole thread and want to thank everybody again for the comments. The whole idea of angulation on the toeside has been a tremendous help in moving me from "noobie hack" to "starting to get the idea" LOL!

Lately I've been on a "it's not me, it's my setup" kick. Today I moved my boots to a neutral forward lean ("3" on the scale of 1-5) and narrowed my stance a little to 19.75" and it feels just fine. We had some tough conditions here, really firm and bumpy refreeze (complete with groomer tracks from last night) overlaid with a thin layer of "margarita" snow so if you "could" hold but it took some edging skills. My toeside chatter was less (yay :) but still present (awe :( ). Still none on heelside (excellent dude!)

Today I realized the chattering seems to start with the tail of the board so I want to move my bindings back a little. I have no idea where they are....but when I narrowed my stance at the hill I moved my rear binding forward about 2" so I might be in front of the midpoint.

Setback....where do you run your bindings?