An Idea for Racers coming to BOL

[Jack Michaud]

Unfortunately sometimes people are skeptical of new members they know nothing about. This can come across negatively towards a racer who has just joined the forum. I wish everyone would take time to learn who they are dealing with, but in reality that doesn't always happen.

I think it would be helpful if racers used their forum signature to identify themselves. You can edit your signature in the user control panel - click "User CP", upper left. Perhaps you can just say something like "USSA #321" or "8th overall GS, Race to the Cup, 2006", or "FIS member since 1999" or something simple like that.

Yes?

[yyzcanuck]

Better yet... why not address this to the skeptical people.
"Don't treat new members like $hit!"

[MUD]

Better yet... why not address this to the skeptical people.
"Don't treat new members like $hit!"

He's got a good point.... I was thinking about how we could do it and I just keep coming back to this.

The way I look at it is, why should we treat racers any different?????
So that means we treat all new members bad??????
There for it all gets back to the above.:o

[Mike T]

I'm with YYZCanuck, stop treating new members like crap. This is a generalized and simplified version of what I said on the Classifieds thread that was recently removed.

Don't single out racers, pros, etc, it will alienate them. If we want them to contribute, we need to welcome them.

The way I see it, pros not announcing who they are is not the problem. The problem is we have a few individuals who could use a lesson in diplomacy, and who are intolerant of new members. If we're going to solve a problem, let's solve the right one.

[Buell]

Great responses so far!

Here is the very condensed version of a new thread I was going to start earlier today:

I just wish a few of you could understand the beauty of what we have in the hardbooting world. Don't screw it up for the rest of us! You are chasing off some good people - racers and non-racers.

[Pow]

gives me hope for the future. At least most of us recognize there's an issue here and want to fix it. I hope people learn to treat others well in the future because I feel you shouldnt have to be in the know to post gear here, constructive responses can be made without offending the seller. If you know more about the gear and think the seller might take offense to your criticism, notify them privately, or take the extra effort to think of a nice way to put it.

maybe the issue is people are being a little too nosey? why should a person be posting discussions in a classified? If my understanding is correct, the purpose of the classified is to sell and buy gear, not talk about the gear they have. If they wanted that, they would post in the "carving community". Sure, we all like looking at shiney gear and dreaming about being its next owner, but that doesnt mean we should feel obligated to post there.

[Neil Gendzwill]

One problem is the way people expect to be responded to in their posts. If they arrive here and state some opinions that are counter to the groupthink, then they are likely to get questioned. Even if the questioning is polite, it causes a problem. The racer is thinking, "what do these guys know" and the regulars are thinking "who is this guy to tell us what's what". I see it lots on martial arts boards, where very senior people simply don't have the time or patience to build up an online rep, aren't used to having their opinions questioned, and simply stop dropping by when it happens. No matter how polite the exchange, real authorities don't take kindly to being told they are wrong by keyboard warriors.

[Allee]

"The rules are the same in the virtual world as the real world. Imagine a room containing a group of people who are deep in discussion. Walking past in the corridor is someone who disagrees with what they are saying. They walk right into the room, and without having previously built any relationships or trust with the people in the room, just start spouting their opinion. That would be rude and inappropriate and the response would not be positive."

But I agree that we can br pretty hard on newbies. We all asked dumb questions once, remember?

[Mike T]

No matter how polite the exchange, real authorities don't take kindly to being told they are wrong by keyboard warriors.

IMHO, this is something we must accept as truth and modify our thinking and behavior if we want more Real Authorities to hang out here.




Steve Prokopiw pointed out on the Coiler thread how awesome it is that Bruce comes here and shares his recent thoughts. Sean Martin comes here and does the same thing. If we can treat Bruce and Sean with the respect they deserve, then is it so hard to treat others who are in the industry the same way?


The trick is, stopping to think that the next "newbie" you see might be someone who is equally respecte din the industry as Bruce and Sean are, who simply doesn't use a screen name that clues you in...

[Neil Gendzwill]

"The rules are the same in the virtual world as the real world. Imagine a room containing a group of people who are deep in discussion. Walking past in the corridor is someone who disagrees with what they are saying. They walk right into the room, and without having previously built any relationships or trust with the people in the room, just start spouting their opinion. That would be rude and inappropriate and the response would not be positive."
Yeah, but suppose we're all in a room bench-racing Ferraris when Scott Speed walks by and offers some advice. Maybe the reaction would be a little different if people a) knew it was Scott Speed and b) knew who that is. We have the additional complication on the ol' interweb that anyone can claim to be anyone else, so arguing from authority is not often all that successful.

Again, the real authorities don't take kindly to having their identities or credentials questioned. It's not a problem with an easy solution.

[kitekitten]

You can take this for what it is worth, as I am a "newbie" to your forum. I would hope I don't have to supply my credentials to "earn" a response from your members. While I am not new to snowboard racing, I hope, for the sake of the sport, that you would welcome new racers and want to help them, regardless of credentials. I would love to see the popularity of snowboard racing grow, as I love the sport! I joined a kiteboarding forum in New Jersey, prior to relocating from Chicago, and no one ever questioned my ability...rather they welcomed me to their community and became some of my closest friends on the East Coast. And their open arms, helped me to excel at yet another amazing sport! And now, I find myself in a similar position...moving to Seattle and looking for someplace to snowboard race...I don't need to prove myself on a forum...that will happen on the race course!

[Buell]

the real authorities don't take kindly to having their identities or credentials questioned. It's not a problem with an easy solution.

Yes it is. We just need understand that this is an open forum with a lot of connections to the outside world of hardbooting and we will often get people stopping in who know a hell of a lot more than we do.

BOL is not hardbooting. BOL is also not a club where new members need to be approved before being treated well. BOL is a place where SOME of the people who hardboot post online, exchange ideas, and make friends.

There is wrong advice dispensed here on a daily basis by members that get loads of respect and have high post counts. Do we really lose that much by being open to new posters? Do we really deserve to immediately question their credentials?

There are some amazing boarders, racers, and instructors out there that do not post here because of that mentality. We are all missing out on some great information with our silly protectionism.

[MUD]

"The rules are the same in the virtual world as the real world. Imagine a room containing a group of people who are deep in discussion. Walking past in the corridor is someone who disagrees with what they are saying. They walk right into the room, and without having previously built any relationships or trust with the people in the room, just start spouting their opinion. That would be rude and inappropriate and the response would not be positive."

But I agree that we can br pretty hard on newbies. We all asked dumb questions once, remember?

So by that argument, one can not express ones opinion until, what, 500 posts, 1000 posts?????

Or you have to tell who you are????

[noschoolrider]

"<b>Don't treat new members like $hit!</b>"

The quote above says it all and it is sad that you should have to even consider telling people to behave this way!

[Pow]

I think YYZ's quote should somehow be attached to the start of every thread, so nobody can forget

actually, ive got a fairly high post count now... YYZ, do you mind?

[zoom]

Hi kitekitten! Welcome to BOL and the NW! I'll see if anyone in the Bachelor crew has leads on races near Seattle and get back with you. If you'll come to OES (http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=16635) in March, I'll buy you a beverage of your choice AND you can have fun carving circles around some (but not all) of us.

O.k. The room analogy - seriously?

I wish we'd see more racers/pros/full time riders jumping into actual Carving Community discussions on BOL. Post count ain't everything. On technique or gear threads, riding experience trumps hours on BOL - no doubt.

On the FS thread, it can be hard to tell how much a person knows/rides from the pictures and descriptions of their gear. But what if we were to assume that the person offering their boots might have something more to offer the forum than gear? We might gain a great new member of our community rather than alienating yet another coach, racer, or non-pro rider just like the rest of us.

And, if someone walks into the room carrying a KESSLER, I don't think they need to prove themselves. :rolleyes:

[tex1230]

And, if someone walks into the room carrying a KESSLER, I don't think they need to prove themselves. :rolleyes:
If someone walks into a room carrying picture of a Kessler that they don't describe properly and then ask 10% more than what you can buy the same (as far as you know) board from a respectable dealer, wouldn't you question them a little?

I agree with yyz - don't treat newbies like $hit

I also say (as I did before) Respect gets Respect. If you walk into a room and join a conversation, no matter who you are, you should show a minimum of respect to those that were there before, as you may have missed an earlier relevant part of the conversation. If you can't handle a few questions with some amount of politeness, maybe you should deal with whatever issues you have in your own life before trying to correct others.

[zoom]

Hey Tex,

When I saw the Kessler thread (http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=18015), I thought the OP sounded like they knew their way around a race course and assumed it was a custom. If I hadn't made that assumption and I was interested in the board, I might have asked, "Hey, is this a custom board, if so, what's your weight? Could you give us any additional specs?" Pretty much same question, but asked more... ahem... respectfully.

IMO, you joined his conversation. Respect gets respect.

[gdboytyler]

And, if someone walks into the room carrying a KESSLER, I don't think they need to prove themselves. :rolleyes:

Total disagreement here. Now that CATEK carries Kessler, anybody can get one.

Compared to the SurferMag forum, BOL is a gentlemen's club (the kind with manners, not topless women).

I must have missed the posts where BOL oldtimer's have been dissing racers or pros.

I would definitely be more comfortable buying equipment from the weekend warrior with 5000 posts instead of the racer with 5 posts. I don’t know either one, but at least I would have read about any bad dealings with the post whore.

When it comes to reading about technique, I pretty much ignore whatever’s been written, UNLESS, I’ve seen some photos or videos of the poster in action.

So I like Jack’s idea about including your race background in your signature. You’ll get a more attentive audience.

[tex1230]

you were obviously more observant than me. ;)

Both he and I escalated that little encounter. Of course it got worse with all of the "me too" types and the "racers should be treated like gods" types jumping in. I guess it could have been handled better on both ends.

Jack's original suggestion is valid, though. If you're new here, introduce yourself before you ask someone to send you thousands of dollars.

[SpeedracerJVB]

I think that I will chime in now...

First, for those of you who have and will continue to offer positive, constructive and at least mildly productive input regardless of the subject, thank you.

Second, I am not new here, I simply choose not to participate because of what I and most of my fellow competitors view to be a highly volitale and slightly disrespectful crowd that tends to gather here. Unfortunately a reality that I was reminded of once again when I placed my Kessler SL board on here for sale thinking that it would somehow be recieved in a positive manner.

Third, those of you who sit behind your computer screens and tough talk other people are really not so tough. You are lame and you are in a very real way hindering the sport that you claim to love by creating an environment that is elitest and unfriendly. You make claims that the "racers" are too kool for school but that's not it at all. "Racers" such as myself don't want to be involved with your disrespectful banter, honestly, we have better things to do with our lives, you should consider doing the same. On top of the fact that we don't like to participate because of a handful of dooshbags on here you're also discouraging new people from entering our sport which is something I find offensive and inexcusable. It is challenging enough to learn about alpine snowboarding much less get good advice and when people come to a forum such as this and recieve harrassment from people like tough guy Text it simply pushes people away and leaves a bad taste in thier mouth.

As for the "racers" being asked to post their resume so that someone out there in cyber space can decide whether or not their opinion is of value or not i'm at a loss and again this is what makes this forum for lack of a better word, yucky. I read so many baseless opinions on here from people that I am certain should do more reading than typing and yet the people who are out there doing it and not talking about it have to somehow provide credentials to appease an online audience. The racers of the world owe you nothing of the sort, racers, freeriders, people interested in the sport, it doesn't matter, they should all be welcome here with open arms and everyone here should be thankful for anyone who is willing to offer positive or productive information regardless of their back ground. Some of you should get over yourselves, seriously, and if a high profile racer comes on here to contribute, instead of asking them for their last ten results perhaps you should just say thank you for taking the time to share.

Text, I almost hate to respond to your last posting but since i'm typing... I am fairly certain that I did nothing to escalate the issue. I responded to someone who was being fairly ignorant. That's all. You should at least try to get all the information necessary to behave like a doosh before you go out on a limb and make yourself look stupid. Regardless, I was happy to drop my price a little if it helps someone get on a good board, just the type of guy I am.

[SpeedracerJVB]

I almost forgot, Text, I didn't ask anyone to blindly send me any money, I simply posted a snowboard for sale. You continue to amaze me with your overwhelming ignorance, do you think that their might be an introduction and maybe some detailed correspondence if a sale were to occur? My friend, you represent all that I was talking about above, please, think before you speak/type.

[wavechaser]

Well Jack...you tried! Good effort. :freak3:

I think what would help a lot of people here, racers, newbies, regulars and the rest - is if we learn to just ignore the BS. It took me a while but I'm getting better at it, and it works. Take what you need, correspond with the people you dig, shine the rest. Recreate, don't escalate. If you really need to get ugly with someone, take it to PM or email. Otherwise it's like having a public white trash fight, like you're on Jerry Springer but without the bouncers.

DISCLAIMER: Before anyone jumps on me about my recent battle with skeezrule...it was a joke. I know who this person is and was just stirring the pot for fun to see who bit...probably not the best idea as any new BOL members would read that and get turned off...so...sorry about that...and skeez, you still suck eggs!! ;):)

[Bordy]

When are half of you knuckleheads going to figure it out.

Same veiw I've been pimping since day one.

The BOL boys club....we can type it so we think we can do it :smashfrea

Its bull**** that anyone should have to post a resume or race referance.

I remember being so fed up years ago, I had enough and posted my ful snowboard resume hoping to "back my stuff up" becuase I was sick of being told by half the board I could not possibly know what I was talking about.

Only to recive more crap for posting my resume. Now you think racers should have to?

Why to get into the Boys Club????

BOL is not alpine snowboarding its just a forum to talk about it.

Funny when Lexa post every one get all ohh and ahhh. whyh cant you treat everyone like that?

I can't count the number of olympians who have posted stuff here and been hassled.

I'm with Morgan. Most of you need to be alot nicer period.

[wavechaser]

When are half of you knuckleheads going to figure it out.

Bordy - just to clarify...I wasn't agreeing with Jack when I said "you tried"...I was more referring to the fact that he started a thread with the idea of ending some of the BS - albeit an idea I also feel is not the right way to go about it - and then Speed and Tex turned it into a "you suck, no you suck" fest again. Hence my comments about just shining the BS. I can see why Speed got upset, but if he just let it go right off the bat in that Kessler thread, and made his response something like "Kessler for sale - great board, PM me for details"...that hopefully would have been the end of it. As you well know, trying to defend yourself on internet forums is next to impossible, so why waste the time and stress yourself out? The cream will rise to the top, the good stuff will sell to those who have the knowledge of the product, or the interest and intelligence to ask the right people about it...the rest is, well, just hot air. That's my 2 cents for tonight anyway...pow day tomorrow...time to rack :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

[SpeedracerJVB]

Again, i'm at a loss, Chaser, I wasn't upset nor was I trying to defend myself, I have no reason to but please allow me to apologize, I didn't read the BOL too kool for school handbook on how to respond to ****ing idiots.

Billy, this is a lost cause man...

[FTA2R]

what a great thread.

i couldn't agree more with the speedracerjvb.

seems a just a few members have to be constant d'bags and are almost always either angry at the world, overly pessimistic and find fault in everything, generally criticize, or think they are the BOL police (or some combination thereof)...like the guy said:

"honestly, we have better things to do with our lives, you should consider doing the same"

so the guy actually has a life and does other things besides BOL ...follow his lead, dont' hold it against him.

seriously, i would LUV to meet some of you in person

[NMU Alpine Boarder]

Look, Ive defended the "Racer" mentality since I've been here.... Unfortunately, I am just some college kid that enjoys snowboarding, and who happens to have a dream of racing for a living, or at least an ability to race without thinking about the financial consequences of going to said race....

Just because I got XX more posts, does it mean that I "know" more than half of the people that show up here? HELL NO!!!!

I am learning everyday from people that post here, whether their postcount is 20 or 1020..... It doesn't make a difference.... If their concept makes sense to me, in my head, I am going to try it, and let my own results dictate the outcome....

[tex1230]

edited 'cause it's just not worth it.

Come to ECES - I'm buying beer.

[Jack Michaud]

I am not saying racers owe anybody anything. I am not saying racers aren't qualified to post without a resume. I just thought it might help. Sheesh.

Shouldn't everyone get treated with respect? Absolutely. Is this reality? Dream on.

Someone cited the fact that Alexa Loo and Sean Martin and Bruce Varsava get treated with total respect here. Well, could that have something to do with the fact that their screen names are Alexa Loo, Donek, and Bruce Varsava? Everyone knows who they are and what they do and have done, so they have instant cred. That's just human nature.

I've noticed a pattern here where if a racer gets questioned or challenged, perhaps in a flippant manner, the racer gets pissed and storms out. Many times, before they leave, the racer drops the "don't you know who I am" card. Or Bordy drops it for them. That's understandable. I'm just suggesting drop the card up front and avoid the problem.

Bordy, you have a problem with disrespectful people, not BOL members. Just like some skiers have a problem with youths and punks, not snowboarders.

To everyone, everyday you come here you have a choice. You can choose to enjoy the signal and ignore the noise, or you can choose to let it ruin your day. Either way, it's up to you.

[Bordy]

Again, i'm at a loss, Chaser, I wasn't upset nor was I trying to defend myself, I have no reason to but please allow me to apologize, I didn't read the BOL too kool for school handbook on how to respond to ****ing idiots.

Billy, this is a lost cause man...


J,

For years now.....

Inportant thing is there are people here for the right reasons. Some times you have to let the Bullys have their way and not get rattled.

Just because some dude thinks its his job to educate folks on BOL but he himself is not educated thats OK. I bet 20% of the board is in the know and laughing at the Bafoon. How ever the 80% that beleaves the bafoon thats the baffons crew.. so the bafoon thinks they are super cool. But 20% know better.

Come to BOL for the 20% its better then the 2% that was here in the begining.

For every thanks Billy e-mail I get I still get e-mail that says I am the Bafoon.

Had a guy once tell me I need to step out of my little racer world cuz i knew nothing about freeriding????

Thats the action at BOL.. to self centered to think that a rider who can turn when ever they want however they want can't freeride???

Then the same dude is asking tuning advice the next day. Guess who I don't help....

Its all a circle...round...you know..for kids.........

[trailertrash]

I think we have established the problem. There is a communication issue on both sides of the table.

How do we fix it?

How do we make BOL more inclusive? What can we actually do?

Ban the top posters? :)

Moderate more? Less?

Have more rules?

Have a Mission Statement defined for BOL so threads and posts are more on topic?

Have classes on how to put people on the "Igonore List"?

Ideas?

[wavechaser]

Again, i'm at a loss, Chaser, I wasn't upset nor was I trying to defend myself, I have no reason to but please allow me to apologize, I didn't read the BOL too kool for school handbook on how to respond to ****ing idiots.

Billy, this is a lost cause man...

Speed...emailed you. A few ideas and comments, nothing harsh. :biggthump

[MUD]

TT,
The most civil site I frequent they moderate the crap out of..... And it still happens. I know we don't want heavy moderation, we have voted in the past. I think it is how it is...... This is BOL, welcome to the clique.
I used to have a problem with it, now I just don't care.......

[wavechaser]

I think we have established the problem. There is a communication issue on both sides of the table.

How do we fix it?

Ideas?

First, I wish that threads which degenerate into people calling other people certain names, or using even edited profanity like "f***ing", would be taken to PM or email with the parties in question. Why do that stuff publicly (unless we are making fun, for fun's sake, of alt-logins like skeezrule)?

Maybe make it a rule that you can't use even edited profanity or vulgar words/phrases, or you get a warnign on the first try, suspension on the second. That would make it a nicer place to begin with.

I also race skateboards, and we have a forum at http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB/index.php
where users must use their REAL names to register...as a result there is a LOT less BS. Not none, but a lot less - and everyone knows exactly who the real problem people are. Most of the top racers in the world post there and as a result it is a VERY useful source of information on everything relating to the sport. Granted, it is not a "carving" or "longboard" forum, it is for racing, but still - I think it works well. I know it would be a nightmare to make all BOL's aliased members change their names at this point...maybe a line could be added under the username, with the real name in smaller print like the "Skidder", "Alpine Ace" text?

That's all I have for now. :)

-Rick Floyd
Warren, VT

[MUD]

Here is my example :www.ktmtalk.com

But I am serious, they REALLY moderate it, very little tolerance. It is also THE resource for KTM's period!

You can login as what ever you like, but if you start trouble you won't last long. Even top pros post without us knowing who they are, it is a very open minded group when it comes to input from others.

[MUD]

Here is another one:www.advrider.com

This site is for dualsport motorcycles.
They have a section called jo mamma. if a thread goes south it goes to the basement (jo mamma). It is sort of a self moderator, if you have a serious thread going and someone starts to give you a hard time, you do not want it to go into the basement, so people tend to try to keep it on task.....

One thing is Jo mamma has really only one rule, no porn. Other than that anything goes, and I mean anything....... You can start any kind of thread there you want, and let the inmates have at it. Personally I hate the place.

[yyzcanuck]

...I'm just suggesting drop the card up front and avoid the problem...
I just now realized what bothers me about your idea... It's just a bit too close to suggesting someone wear a badge to show their status or station in life. Next thing you know, Bordy and Fin will have to put a pink triangle as their signature. See what I'm saying?

I'm not immune to the 'treat people like $hit syndrome'. I don't take well to personal attacks and the exchange last season with Eaglez was a perfect example of my real world self.
A few years back I had words with another individual regarding a Burton 'race stock' board.
I yam what I yam... but I don't feel the need to wear a badge. Does that mean I need to remove my signature file?

AND... I don't believe for a minute that Alexa Loo is actually posting here. It's probably skeez rule! hehehe

[Jack Michaud]

I just now realized what bothers me about your idea... It's just a bit too close to suggesting someone wear a badge to show their status or station in life.

Yeah, unfortunately that's pretty much what it is. Your yyzcanuck logo in your sig is basically the same thing. It identifies you as someone in the industry, not just another joe. Not that there's anything wrong with being another joe, but you have to admit it sets you apart.

Bordy is right, it is bullsh!t that a racer should have to identify him/herself as such to some people. It's also bullsh!t that I have to breathe second hand smoke from the guy in the chair in front of me on the chairlift. But that's life. Simple manners are a dying art.

[D-Sub]

I've noticed a pattern here where if a racer gets questioned or challenged, perhaps in a flippant manner, the racer gets pissed and storms out. Many times, before they leave, the racer drops the "don't you know who I am" card. Or Bordy drops it for them. That's understandable. I'm just suggesting drop the card up front and avoid the problem.

I know plenty of people think I'm a problem here, and I've been thinking about that a fair bit lately and intend to take it to heart.

There's absolutely no arguing with the fact that every single person should be treated politely at first. "Respect?" No...respect is something different, earned. Expecting someone to respect your authority when they have zero idea who you are is ridiculous. Expecting them to treat you politely is perfectly reasonable.

Tex definitely has a stick up his ass about buying and selling gear. The obsession with not posting ebay auctions, and what appears to be a desire to regulate what someone can and can't / how much they can or can't sell for is a bit over the top. I'm sure you'd acknowledge this, Tex?

That said, there is a huge amount of EGO floating through here. A few of the biggest egos I have ever run across post here, and refuse to ever consider that they might be out of line.

This is an internet forum. It is not a race forum, restricted to the best of the best. S--t talk will roll right along shop talk. The way I see it, there are a handful of people that demand respect from people who have no idea who they are, and might not even care.

I was just thinking yesterday how much I admire ski and snowboard racers simply for their ability to HAUL ASS and stay under control. I can't ride fast, can't ride steeps well, and fall apart when the snow gets hard and loud. I know damn well that there are hundreds of people out there who are better than me but that doesn't mean for a second that I see them as elevated in any way shape or form.

I was rude to two racers recently. Mort and...forgot the other guy's name. The fact that they are high-level racers has nothing to do with it. I was rude to people. Actually, what started the thing with one of them wasn't rude on my part at all. I rotated two pics and said I hate looking at sideways pics. I don't see how that is an insult but it was taken as one, and then it got worse and I got several emails calling me names, telling me Mort was dyslexic (I'm supposed to know that?)

I think I confused the deal with Mort with the one with the French Canadian rider...forgot his name...

I'm rambling. My point is, there's a balance here. Everyone deserves politeness until they prove they don't. No one should expect to "walk into a room" and expect to be admired and respected when no one knows who they are!

I don't think "newbies" are treated poorly here at all. The number of questions that gets asked over and over and over with people clearly ignoring the search function are almost always answered politely either with "please use the search function" or a rehash of what's been covered multiple times. That's pretty damn polite.

So, ultimately, it seems to come down to "Do you know who the f--k I am?" and expectations that are unrealistic.

I read the Kessler thread, and sorry SpeedRacer...you went too far. You told TEX (it's not texT, never was) he needed to get a life, couldn't ride, etc etc. How in the world would you know this? Because he stepped a little out of bounds over a board he thought was overpriced? Was it any of his business? NO, not really. Was it necessary for you to post long tirades about how much of a loser he (we) is?

It's frustrating to me because I have never been one to admire people. They're just people. Some are really good at things, and I admire those capabilities when I know what they are, and care.

Being polite has nothing to do with admiration or respect. Polite is just polite, and everyone deserves it.

That said, Jack, mods...I really think you should post an ABSOLUTELY NO CHATTER rule for classifieds. Other forums do. I know this includes me, and I'm perfectly fine with that. It irritates me to no end when people post "oohhhh, I really want that board but I can't afford it." or anything else that has NOTHING to do with buying or selling.

If you had this rule, the three most recent flair-ups would have been avoided for the most part. I might still have fixed the photos but I would have been required by the rules to not "say" anything.

I'm going to start a petition, and I think the results will be :nono: to discussion in classifieds.

[D-Sub]

I just re-read the forum rules, and I'd like others to as well. I have explicitly violated more than one, as did SpeedRacer, Mort, Bordy, the FC fella, Dave Morgan...A LOT of people! Heh...we should all be banned!

Rules and Guidelines for this forum
<hr style="color: rgb(51, 153, 255);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> To All Carving Community Members

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[tex1230]

Tex definitely has a stick up his ass about buying and selling gear. The obsession with not posting ebay auctions, and what appears to be a desire to regulate what someone can and can't / how much they can or can't sell for is a bit over the top. I'm sure you'd acknowledge this, Tex?
You are absolutely right. I'm a numbers guy and if numbers don't make sense I get a little testy. I dropped the ebay thing a while ago though, right?

[D-Sub]

You are absolutely right. I'm a numbers guy and if numbers don't make sense I get a little testy. I dropped the ebay thing a while ago though, right?

HECK NO you didn't dude! You intentionally pointed it out in your "before you post for sale" !

:)

Just keep in mind that if you're not in the transaction, the numbers don't need to make sense to you (or me, or anyone but the buyer and seller.) I don't think that what you said warranted the response it got, but unfortunately I think that will be completely overlooked.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I just now realized what bothers me about your idea... It's just a bit too close to suggesting someone wear a badge to show their status or station in life. Next thing you know, Bordy and Fin will have to put a pink triangle as their signature. See what I'm saying?
Well, first off everyone should treat each other politely, period.

However...

This is a forum where technical information gets exchanged. As Billy points out, some of it is good advice and some of it is bad. If you are in the position to be looking for advice, how do you know if it is good or bad? If an experienced racer or coach signs up under a nick and posts some technical stuff that conflicts with the weekend warrior advice, how do us weekend warriors know which is right? The answer is, we don't. But if we were aware of who they are, we are going to pay much more attention. Personally, when Bordy or Phil Fell or one of the other guys I know has the goods is kind enough to drop some turning/tuning/goin' fast advice on us, I'm listening. Bruce, Sean, Chris - they've got my attention on board-building issues for sure. Rob and the other AASI/CASI bigwigs open my ears on teaching.

Going back to my martial arts experience, we sure get a ton of people who have been practicing for a few years who like to give as much advice as possible. We call them hachikyu sensei. But I pay attention to the ones I know have a few decades experience, and it's as simple as them putting a line in their profile that says so.

[D-Sub]

Yeah, but Neil...this isn't about advice or whatnot, is it? It's about attitude. And if anyone says the "weekend warriors" are the only ones with attitude, well...

I'd also add that someone who has "only been practicing for a few" years on a snowboard could easily understand the concepts and put them into practice, and be able to offer advice based on analysis and interpretation.

[yyzcanuck]

But I pay attention to the ones I know have a few decades experience, and it's as simple as them putting a line in their profile that says so.
How would one know if the line in their profile was true? For example, my profile. Would you come to me for brain surgery?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'd also add that someone who has "only been practicing for a few" years on a snowboard could easily understand the concepts and put them into practice, and be able to offer advice based on analysis and interpretation.Yeah, that's what the guys who have only been practicing a few years of martial arts think, too. They've got something their instructor told them, or something that works for them at their level, and conclude from that they know the whole story. Sometimes they've got useful stuff to say, and sometimes they're misguided. What I'm saying is in that case, when someone I know for a fact is 6 dan and has competed at worlds says "here's where you're wrong and why", I tend to listen to that guy. Those kind of guys aren't used to the students telling them they're wrong in person and don't take it well online.

It's the same here. If a well-qualified guy says "this is the way it is", I'm paying attention to that. If someone argues with him and he gets a little testy, I cut him some slack because I know how frustrating it is to have 10 guys who think they know argue with you when you are the guy that knows for sure.

So to me, it comes down to a) being polite and b) letting go of your ego enough to consider you could be wrong.


How would one know if the line in their profile was true? For example, my profile. Would you come to me for brain surgery?Same way we do on my other boards - it's a small enough community, and probably someone we know, knows that guy. Just like the recent brouhaha over the Kessler - several people we trust knew that guy. People who lie about something like that are easily exposed.

[D-Sub]

It's the same here. If a well-qualified guy says "this is the way it is", I'm paying attention to that. If someone argues with him and he gets a little testy, I cut him some slack because I know how frustrating it is to have 10 guys who think they know argue with you when you are the guy that knows for sure.

Dealt with that in the electronic music scene before. Good point.


So to me, it comes down to a) being polite and b) letting go of your ego enough to consider you could be wrong.

goes both ways!

[yyzcanuck]

Neil, I agree, the community is small enough that a 'ricky racer' will be exposed. Should the onus be on those people, about to make the purchase or accept the advice, to practice their own form of due diligence in determining someones credibility? I know I do and try to do it without immediately berating or belittling them online. Maybe others could too?

Jack, I didn't put the company logo in my signature as a badge of status... it was free advertising! However, I agree, it does act as a status badge. I'm not sure if it actually lends credence to the bull**** that I post, but if it does, again, due diligence is in order.

[wavechaser]

Jack, I didn't put the company logo in my signature as a badge of status... it was free advertising! However, I agree, it does act as a status badge. I'm not sure if it actually lends credence to the bull**** that I post, but if it does, again, due diligence is in order.

We love ya Dave! :cool:

[Jack Michaud]

Jack, I didn't put the company logo in my signature as a badge of status... it was free advertising! However, I agree, it does act as a status badge.

Nah, didn't think you did, just saying that is part of the resulting effect.


I'm not sure if it actually lends credence to the bull**** that I post, but if it does, again, due diligence is in order.

lol

[D-Sub]

the hubristic, know-it-all vitriol that's sure to follow new ideas and viewpoints.

I still don't see this. People here don't simply react just because someone's new. They react when someone's new and comes in slingin poo, with few exceptions.

Politeness is still the key, no doubt.

[D-Sub]

You misunderstood me. I'm not talking about ideas. I'm talking about attitude. My point was I don't see many people get attacked for ideas. I see them get attacked for attitude, racers and freecarvers alike.

In the Kessler thread, tex was a bit out of line at first, but then the OP went off, told him he had no life etc etc, and a few chimed in to back that sentiment. Reaction outweighed the trigger.

Same thing with 2 recent incidents with me. Both times I posted lighthearted stuff with no intent and got snotty responses, followed by public and private attitude.

Should experience be honored? Of course!

[LeeW]

Simple manners are a dying art.

Sad, but true.

[D-Sub]

AHH! And I agree 300 %.... Well-said Mr. Sub
Those with experience may not always wear it on their shoulder, though.

And THAT is a good point too, also made earlier. Why should they have to? It's a fine-line situation here because there can be world-class riders posting here, some of whom have pretty big egos and seem to think we're a bit beneath them.

At the same time...like someone else said...are they supposed to come in and say "I am so and so. I've done this and this."?

Still comes down to politeness on both sides! Simple!

I just re-read the two recent classifieds where a spat arose (me) and I still don't think the reactions were necessary. I have taken all this to heart though and will personally be more careful.

[wavechaser]

I think that you may have found a partial solution already.With a judicious helping of discretion and thoughtfulness, anyone should be able to recognize the merits of advice and other input posted by anonymous new (to Bomber) professionals, despite any (predictable) remonstrations of the forum-pond's 'Big fish'.I think that, thanks to the efforts of trailertrash and others, Professionals with useful experience will join Bomberonline, if only anonymously.With gentle tolerance, I suspect they will ignore the hubristic, know-it-all vitriol that's sure to follow new ideas and viewpoints.We are all, after all, (from newbies-to-pros), adherents of one wonderfully exhilarating sport- The key (online) is to stay open to new voices and to never forget that which brings us all together, here. Anyone can nitpick over differences.I love this sport.

Good, sensible post. I think one thing that happens here which can cause problems is that we run the gamut age and / or maturity wise. I know that 25 years ago (I'm 45) I was nowhere near as sensible and measured in my reactions to people as I (usually :freak3: ) am now. Nature of the beast.

As far as racers not coming here - that hasn't exactly been my experience... over the past three years at least. I have bought equipment and/or received help from current or present coaches/team members or USSA/FIS racers Justin Reiter, Chris Carol, Aimee Newton, Matt Horne, Darren Ratcliffe, Vic Wild, Mark Ballard, Freddy Ansara, Tyler Jewell, Phil Berube...and of course Bordy, Phil F., Ink, Chuck (RIP), Trappy etc. - plus others I'm sure I wasn't even aware of. Most of the time these folks are too busy to spend a lot of time with chit-chat here, but they are definitely around. With few exceptions the dealings have been pleasant and fruitful. :biggthump

[tex1230]

An issue not yet addressed in this thread is the constant presumption, by Bomber's more territorial pros, that new posters to this board lack similar, let alone more, "real-world" experience.
A quick gander at the recent posts to the "binding angle" thread serves excellent example.
Ultimately, these presumptions, on the part of highly defensive regional pros (and ams), drive well-intended world class pros (intent on sharing knowledge) away.
I know several professionals who agree..In fact, It was pointed out to me by two excellent pro coaches who walked away from this excellent board.
I have never seen these assumptions. I (and others who spend alot of time here, from my observation) generally assume that if you come here, you already know something about boarding, or else you wouldn't be looking for the mecca of hardbooting on the web.
Sure, some of us (myself included) can be jerks at times, particularly in the off season, but if you check your ego when you walk in and inderstand that this is the internet, not life, you will find that we are a generally friendly and knowledgable bunch who are as passionate about this sport as anyone can be.
I have met quite a few people through this and other forums, and very few are anything like their online persona.

-Matt


PS - if you think this place is rude, come to tgr sometime ;)

[wavechaser]

An issue not yet addressed in this thread is the constant presumption, by Bomber's more territorial pros, that new posters to this board lack similar, let alone more, "real-world" experience.
A quick gander at the recent posts to the "binding angle" thread serves excellent example.
Ultimately, these presumptions, on the part of highly defensive regional pros (and ams), drive well-intended world class pros (intent on sharing knowledge) away.
I know several professionals who agree..In fact, It was pointed out to me by two excellent pro coaches who walked away from this excellent board.

Help me understand something. Why would a seasoned pro rider or coach want/need to post anonymously? Wouldn't it be better to come out right off the bat and just say "I'm so and so, and I coach here, and have "X" experience? I'm asking this in good spirits. Maybe there is a reason I am not aware of. It just seems to me that it would avoid any of the kind of back and forth that you and Bordy and Phil have going in the binding angle thread right now. The pros that use their real names (except amybe Bordy - luv ya man) seem to have a lot less "issues" coming their way.

An example of this effect would be my post in the binding angle thread - don't you think it would be natural for me to trust Phil's comments, knowing him personally and reading his comments here for three years plus, over a new poster using the name "williamblake"? I went out of my way to be diplomatic about it.

And guess what - I tried front cant and rear flat on my GS stick yesterday...I like it at first use, but it may not suit my current board...need more testing. I went away from rear and front cant last year - to just small toe lift front and rear heel lift, with risers...got more control in the rough stuff, along with using a 21cm wide board and shallower angles than ever before (51f / 48r). Good stuff.

PS - as stated elsewhere (I forget when and where) I am a world-ranked amateur skateboard slalom racer...and our big competition forum requires all posters to use their real name. Almost ALL the top pros in the world post there, and there is a LOT less BS...or if there IS BS, at least we all know who is who and it is all taken with a grain of salt. Check it out:
http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB/index.php

[D-Sub]

My contribution to the "Binding Angle" thread are receiving the "treatment", already.

Funny that this is coming from people who are complaining about racers being mistreated here, about "us" having no respect.

[skipuppy]

I don't know anything about snowboarding but I am a big lurker of the technical threads and my post count is 95% from the OT forum.

In my lurking what I've noticed is tone is the fuel for flame wars, not content.
____________________

It makes sense (to use the room analogy) if a new person comes in and says something controversial to the flow of the conversation that it will be challenged right away. If it is challenged strictly by speaking about the content the conversation should be more more civil and "gentlemanly" whereas if it is challenged with tone (you don't know anything, who are you, that is just wrong, blah blah) of course it will escalate.

It takes an incredibly powerful person to rise above that kind of attack and see that two things may have been occurring: 1) the people in the room felt belittled by the implication that they know less than the new person, and 2) want to know why they should listen to the new person. Unfortunately the way most people have been trained in conversation is to react instead of to look at the underlying needs.
_____________________

The other thing I have noticed is that we do have two newbies in the forum 1) people like me (even though I've been here for years) who admit they don't know anything. This automatically changes the tone they use in forums because its not threatening to those who do know stuff and they are open to receiving that knowledge.

2) people who are experienced and are here for some reason whether it be to sell equipment, network, or make friends, whatever. In this forum these people are new and don't have the "cyber persona" that necessarily equates to the respect they receive in person. They don't need to post their CV to demonstrate their authority on the subject, but they also shouldn't use demeaning tones towards others (ever) or expect automatic respect without earning it within this online community. That being said, I have no clue who is a racer on here and who isn't but I also don't pay attention to advice online, I use it more to find people to ride with and then get their advice- maybe that is a luxury I have.
___________________

Idea on using names instead of aliases: This is a great idea if you want to remove the anonymity of the forum and turn it more into a discussion amongst people who can put faces behind the names. It might also drive away other people who are rightly paranoid about the internet.

Idea on CV signatures: You could do this and then also put signatures for controversial posters saying something along the lines of: Please try to differentiate between the content of my words and the tone and respond only to the content. [That's not a serious suggestion but I think its funny]

___________________

Lesson: The problem is always the tone not the content.
Solution: Learn to differentiate and avoid reacting to it.

[SpeedracerJVB]

Ski Puppy, that was one of the most articulate and intelligent things I have ever read. I hope that everyone who has contributed to this thread reads the above post more than once and takes it to heart because it sums up quite succinctly what seems to be occurring. I would like to think that we all want the same thing here; positive, constructive and productive discussions about the sport that we love or other topics. I think that we all have to take a moment and realize that a significant portion of this general forum is contributing to the hostile environment that presently exists, racers and freeriders alike, and it will take a concerted effort from all of us, myself included to be a little less reactive and a little more thoughtful about not only the things we say but also how we say them. Ski Puppy, thanks for the therapy session, I needed it.

Tex, I apologize for jumping down your throat and for being a hypocrite. If I had an issue with your response to my Kessler I should have simply sent you an email and explained my point of view, instead I reacted and immediately went on the offensive. I was wrong and I am sorry.<O:p

[D-Sub]

awwwwwwww :1luvu::D

nice one, dude.

[wavechaser]

Ski Puppy, that was one of the most articulate and intelligent things I have ever read. I hope that everyone who has contributed to this thread reads the above post more than once and takes it to heart because it sums up quite succinctly what seems to be occurring. I would like to think that we all want the same thing here; positive, constructive and productive discussions about the sport that we love or other topics. I think that we all have to take a moment and realize that a significant portion of this general forum is contributing to the hostile environment that presently exists, racers and freeriders alike, and it will take a concerted effort from all of us, myself included to be a little less reactive and a little more thoughtful about not only the things we say but also how we say them. Ski Puppy, thanks for the therapy session, I needed it.

Tex, I apologize for jumping down your throat and for being a hypocrite. If I had an issue with your response to my Kessler I should have simply sent you an email and explained my point of view, instead I reacted and immediately went on the offensive. I was wrong and I am sorry.<O:p

Right on bro - I've had to eat crow myself here more than once...it's not easy to do. Nice work Tonja! :cool:

[D-Sub]

shiiiit. Eating crow is a cakewalk!

(uh...does that mean I've had to do it too many times?)

SpeedRacer...I have no idea who you are...mind tooting your own horn for a second? It's ok...it's a request.

[SpeedracerJVB]

No horn to toot here bro. I am just a guy who used to be someone, quit racing, missed racing and have been on the long hard journey back to the podium ever since... Joshua V Banks, toot toot.

Gosh I was really enjoying being a member of the anynomius boys club. Oh well. What's up BOL!

[tex1230]

Apology accepted, and seriously, I'll try to be nicer :1luvu:

Edit: and don't let this drive you away. we need more experienced people here to contribute.

[Jack Michaud]

JVB, Tex, et al, thank you.

[Buell]

Skipuppy,

That was beautifully written. I wish I could have said it that well and that balanced myself.

Thank you, Buell

[Steve Prokopiw]

Here,as in life(read marriage),tone has everything to do with how information and opinions are perceived.

[willywhit]

Apology accepted, and seriously, I'll try to be nicer :1luvu:

Edit: and don't let this drive you away. we need more experienced people here to contribute.

ok, group hug. BIG thanks to Jack for his continued efforts to keep the gentlemen's club civil (and the cool chicks here as well) It's the nature of the forum beast, I think. BOL is a chill place to hang out, very little bad vibes here.AND we all LOVE snowboarding , which is nice.
after catching up on this thread tho I couldn't help trying to remember the scene in that movie, what was it ? where the surfer guy is chatting with the other surfer guy and it gets all weepy and he says "Dood, you're talking to me like I'M a CHICK !" what was it ? Point Break ? then it finally came to me Shane Dorian and Matt George in "In God's Hands" ~friggin' classic !
I'm just saying....racers, hacks, geeks, freaks, whatever....just go ride and remember that BOL is the ONLY place online where alpine rules. There's other sites, but BOL is #1 IMHO.
I look forward to meeting and riding with and hopefully ripping some turns with all the cool peeps I've met through BOL and the many I've yet to actually meet in person. :D aloha , now go ride

[skipuppy]

Nice Sig. #71

[wavechaser]

Nice Sig. #71

As usual, it took a woman to tell us boys how to act with civility towards one another. :cool: :)

I might change that "L" in my sig back to a "T". ;)