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View Full Version : Isolating bindings from Titanal board.



cail
November 5th, 2007, 09:25 AM
I know there has been some considerable discussion about bindings on titanal boards lately, but i'm still trying to wrap my head around one thing in particular. Wouldn't lexan risers alter the overall flex of the board? Or is it not considerable? I see the Sflex comes with different stiffnesses, but i'm looking for something cheap (i.e. homemade). So in effect, I'm looking for any input from those that use lexan/plexiglass/other under their bindings.

Thanks in advance.

yyzcanuck
November 5th, 2007, 10:54 AM
... I see the Sflex comes with different stiffnesses, ...
Where did you 'see' this information?

Edit: Found the info in another thread here where Bola made reference to various stiffness of S-Flex. That was only on pre-production/prototype versions. The production models that are available now only come in one configuration.

cail
November 5th, 2007, 11:21 AM
interesting... yeah that was the same post i was referring to. in that case, how stiff are Sflex compared with Hangl plates and Kessler risers?

i'm only interested cause I'm going to make my own plates, but i dont want to go with straight lexan cause i'd think it would be too stiff, so maybe a combination of materials that won't be too soft but still able to flex with the board.

Kirk
November 5th, 2007, 11:22 AM
Wouldn't lexan and plexiglass risers alter the overall flex of the board? Or is it not considerable?

From what I've gathered, these lexan/plexiglass etc. plates are in the 4-5mm (??) range for thickness. From what I know about lexan, it has a high impact strength as well as a certain elasticity. One would think this would allow the material to flex with the board. Would like to hear other's experience with this as well.

Bordy
November 5th, 2007, 11:26 AM
Most metal board that fail, fail due to several factors however one of the safe guards all metal board riders should apply is a “distribution plate” between the board and topsheet . Every binding make a pressure point where it makes contact at the beginning of the flex pattern. I.E. at the first point the binding limits the board flex regardless of the binding this is going to happen. What happens is as the board bends and rebounds it can “dent” the metal creating a weak spot in the shear strength the metal creates, weakening the board at that point and possibly failing later. Using Plex under the binding stops the Dent from happening and helps the binding flex point be distributed over more area and since the plex is soft it doesn’t make the hinge point like the binding does (nor does it change board feel). In till the hangle plate most athletes on metal board were riding plex “pads” under there bindings.
However it is very rare to see Bombers or Cateks under racers feet. Most choose a softer binding for there metal rides. But even with bindings like F2s or burtons boards were breaking left and right and we where really getting nervous on them but the ride was so much better you really could not be competitive on none metal boards. But when metal came out to the masses it became obvious some binding where much more abusive to metal boards, some manufactures even claimed warranties would be voided if you used some brands of bindings on their metal stick.

I think we are going to make some plates from products you can get at Home Depot for around 10 dollars a pair and post a how to on the hardbooter site in the next few days. Perhaps even a template you can print and use, I will also post some photos of a broken metal board that clearly shows the pressure point fracture. That then led to me breaking my back and ending my racing career

Since metal boards are finding there way into the hands of so many recreational riders who clearly don’t want to take the risk of a board breaking do to pressure point failure I highly recommend installing the plates on any board with exposed or covered metal in the product. Plus you still get some added lift to help with leverage.

With some bindings you may still want to take added measures using the suspension kits for bombers and the extra D3 thing for cateks. With the Plex pad

I also try and educate riders on metal boards about the new feel of metal under there feet and encourage all metal board riders to try softer boots and bindings if they have the chance. Most new school metal board do not have to be as stiff to provide a bad ass ride so neither does the gear need to “power” it properly unlike superboards of the past.

I also am straight afraid to use one particular brand of bindings on metal boards due to personally watching several boards fail (metal and wood) with this binding. All from pressure point issues with this particular binding. It may be due to the lack of suspension pads under the binding it may also be due to the direct metal to metal contact when mounted, perhaps its because the milled holes are not round and “strange” torque is introduced into the mounting points in some cases, causing the binding to A damage inserts or B rip out of the board while riding some times due to damaged inserts from mounting or perhaps since the screw provided with the binding may not have enough length to make proper purchase. Also this brand of binding always leaves marks on the topsheet of boards and causes dents in metal under and around the binding after only a single run.

D-Sub
November 5th, 2007, 11:34 AM
bordy = succinct!

BlueB
November 5th, 2007, 11:45 AM
Bordy,
I really think you should refrain from calling the pads Plex. It gives the wrong impression that they should be made out of Plexiglass (acrylic) insead of Lexan (polycarbonate). As discussed before, Plexiglass is a brittle material, it shatters and doesn't like compression loads araund drilled holes, nor tightening with the screws.
Lexan or other polycarbonates are flexier and practically indestructable.

On the side note, did anyone try the cutting board (high-molecular polyethilene). It should have nice dumping properties too...

MUD
November 5th, 2007, 11:47 AM
It is actually a buckling beam problem.
Even stress distribution over the length of a beam can be disrupted by surface imperfections and irregularities. If a beam has a "dent" it will have a stress concentration a this point, being a small feature, the stress concentration is VERY high. With this flaw the beam may have been able to handle a much higher stress than it will after the flaw is created.

Or something like that.....

My question is: Why don't the manufactures supply boards with a floating plate (hangl plate) already attached? Then you just bolt on your binding of choice and away you go. Ski manu's have been doing this for quite a while.

Kirk
November 5th, 2007, 12:01 PM
I think we are going to make some plates from products you can get at Home Depot for around 10 dollars a pair and post a how to on the hardbooter site in the next few days. Perhaps even a template you can print and use, I will also post some photos of a broken metal board that clearly shows the pressure point fracture.

Look forward to this!!

What kind of thicknesses have you used?

Steve Prokopiw
November 5th, 2007, 12:10 PM
I've been wondering about using cutting board material as well.I have a couple of poyethelene ones and even put them in the freezer for a day to test for brittleness and they seemed fine.This is just the kind of redneck engineering that I apply to most of my ideas/tweaks so I plan to give it a try.

bobdea
November 5th, 2007, 12:12 PM
It is actually a buckling beam problem.
Even stress distribution over the length of a beam can be disrupted by surface imperfections and irregularities. If a beam has a "dent" it will have a stress concentration a this point, being a small feature, the stress concentration is VERY high. With this flaw the beam may have been able to handle a much higher stress than it will after the flaw is created.

Or something like that.....

My question is: Why don't the manufactures supply boards with a floating plate (hangl plate) already attached? Then you just bolt on your binding of choice and away you go. Ski manu's have been doing this for quite a while.

I'd bet it's a cost thing, allot of the true race stock skis do not still.

many of the plates on the skis are premounted so you're forced to use binding X

cail
November 5th, 2007, 12:14 PM
i agree with Kirk, that would be awesome.

i spent most of the morning looking into different materials supplied through a local distributor. i may make some inquiries into a couple of them to test them out. but if lexan works just fine then that will probably be the way to go.

thanks for all the input so far.

Hans
November 5th, 2007, 12:15 PM
My question is: Why don't the manufactures supply boards with a floating plate (hangl plate) already attached? Then you just bolt on your binding of choice and away you go. Ski manu's have been doing this for quite a while.

For instance TINKLER or Apex board including plate (http://apex.snowboardcontest.com/htm/tech.htm#nogo)

MUD
November 5th, 2007, 12:17 PM
For instance TINKLER or Apex board including plate (http://apex.snowboardcontest.com/htm/tech.htm#nogo)

Exactly.
I just started my own thread on this...... Just so we don't highjack this one.

tex1230
November 5th, 2007, 12:28 PM
what we really need is another 50 threads on the same subject..you'd think there was no snow on the ground...


:flamethro

MUD
November 5th, 2007, 12:34 PM
None here!!!!! We won't be on the snow until Thanksgiving, if that.:angryfire

pokkis
November 5th, 2007, 12:49 PM
None here!!!!! We won't be on the snow until Thanksgiving, if that.:angryfire
This was view from cabin window on crowded Saturday :angryfire
http://www.flegmatic-carving.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=11&pos=2
Unfortunately now i need to wait 4 weeks to get back on snow, if we dont get real cold front here sooner.

MUD
November 5th, 2007, 12:53 PM
This was view from cabin window on crowded Saturday :angryfire
http://www.flegmatic-carving.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=11&pos=2
Unfortunately now i need to wait 4 weeks to get back on snow, if we dont get real cold front here sooner.

NICE!!!! It is very brown here right now..... We did have some flurries about an hour ago.

bobdea
November 5th, 2007, 12:54 PM
that's one shiny sexy beast of a board

Bordy
November 5th, 2007, 01:15 PM
Bordy,
I really think you should refrain from calling the pads Plex. It gives the wrong impression that they should be made out of Plexiglass (acrylic) insead of Lexan (polycarbonate). As discussed before, Plexiglass is a brittle material, it shatters and doesn't like compression loads araund drilled holes, nor tightening with the screws.
Lexan or other polycarbonates are flexier and practically indestructable.

On the side note, did anyone try the cutting board (high-molecular polyethilene). It should have nice dumping properties too...

Product reads PLGA 220 on it I assume it is Plexaglass I am sure there are better materails to use but I have used PLEX pads for 3 season and never broken one.

I have scene ABS used, cutting boards, Stacks of base,

Prof is in the pudding using PLGA 220 for 3 season, Made several other sets for competing riders using same stuff, no problems.

Since it sounds like lexan is better maybe I'll try it next time.

How many Plates have you made?? and out of what?? how did they work?

skategoat
November 5th, 2007, 01:42 PM
Dave:

What exactly is the S-flex? $429 seems awfully dear for a plastic or rubber plate. There's got to be more to it than that. Do you have any kind of exploded view or schematic?

Henry

cail
November 5th, 2007, 01:45 PM
skategoat, check here..

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=15965&page=3&pp=30&highlight=sflex


a note on ABS. anyone that is thinking this route should be careful with abs. it sometimes has a relatively high coefficient of thermal expansion (unlike polycarbonates). in otherwords, temperature changes could have significant impact on shrinkage and expansion of ABS plates.

BlueB
November 5th, 2007, 01:57 PM
Product reads PLGA 220 on it I assume it is Plexaglass I am sure there are better materails to use but I have used PLEX pads for 3 season and never broken one.

I have scene ABS used, cutting boards, Stacks of base,

Prof is in the pudding using PLGA 220 for 3 season, Made several other sets for competing riders using same stuff, no problems.

Since it sounds like lexan is better maybe I'll try it next time.

How many Plates have you made?? and out of what?? how did they work?
Abreviation does sound like plexiglass, indeed. Just, let's not assume, as the pros do not assume. Who is the manufacturer? That would alow one to use the product code and trace the material properties.
3 season without failure sounds very good.

As for me, I didn't make any plates as I didn't need any so far. However, as an industrial designer with 15 years of experience with plastic, metal and composite products, I extensivelly used acrylics and polycarbonates for products ranging from signage and safety screens up to the speed boat winshields and super yacht windows... Acrylic (Plexiglass) did fail in many situations.
So, if one is already going through trouble of making the pads, he might as well use the material that certainly will not fail.

Kirk
November 5th, 2007, 02:00 PM
Product reads PLGA 220 on it I assume it is Plexaglass I am sure there are better materails to use but I have used PLEX pads for 3 season and never broken one.

Thickness?

pebu
November 5th, 2007, 02:01 PM
Also ABS tends to get brittle when cold, depending on the mix.

On another note, some board makers are using ABS for the sidewall materials, so I guess it could probably go either way.

Bordy
November 5th, 2007, 02:21 PM
Thickness?

Sorry buddy, I ment to post it last post for ya, It about 3/16 I can't find my metric tape right now.

BlueB,

You sound like the guy to find out what the best commonly avalable materal may be, You mentioned lexon before, anything else? Just looking for function it is just a spacer really and the compresion force it receives is just hand turned screw pressure.

The only other info on the Plex I am using is the sku from home depot, it reads 7450799308

Kirk
November 5th, 2007, 02:41 PM
It about 3/16 I can't find my metric tape right now.

Thanks!

Works out to be just under 5mm

D-Sub
November 5th, 2007, 02:50 PM
why would it even need to be that thick? wouldnt pretty much anything that flexes and provides a buffer between binding base and board topsheet work?

this all seems like way too much trouble for anyone but someone with disposable income.

Bordy
November 5th, 2007, 02:56 PM
Dave it needs to be thick enough to disstribute the pressure over a larger area.

What do you mean trouble its like 10 bucks and may save your board from breaking and you getting hurt.

Since my income was $0.00 :biggthump last year I will still spent it.

I just looked at Catek they want 80 bones for a set

D-Sub
November 5th, 2007, 03:03 PM
$80? for some PLASTIC? jesus

I mean more that the metal boards seem, IN MY OPINION kinda stupid for a recreational rider. The simple fact that you have to use spacers means there's a problem with board/binding compatibility and someone should work on it

I guess metal is "the s--t" but at $1000+ for a board that is fragile and needs all this special care I just think it goes beyond reasonable, kinda likea 285cm board.

bobdea
November 5th, 2007, 03:09 PM
yeah, mine cost like $13 to make
Mine after doing some research were a different name for lexan, it was polycarbonate if I remember correctly.
was right next to the plexiglass, the guy that cut said "watch this!" and started beating a sheet with a hammer
it only scratched

Steve Prokopiw
November 5th, 2007, 03:11 PM
The materials are actually pretty cheap comparatively.Another plus,from what I've been reading, is added leverage which makes sense to me from what I remember about my old school carving days..On the Coiler 182am I don't plan to try it as I like to be as close to the board as possible for what I will use it for,ie all mountain and some air/tricks so I have f2 ti intecs on it..But I have a 185 oxygen proton and cateks that I want to try it with and then someday go to a metal board armed with more firsthand knowledge of how risers/flex plates affect my riding. p.s.bobdea,I know you dislike the protons (cap boards) from reading you opinions(which I respect),but I'm light and aggro and always liked Oxygen stuff so I bought it:)

Bordy
November 5th, 2007, 03:12 PM
$80? for some PLASTIC? jesus

I mean more that the metal boards seem, IN MY OPINION kinda stupid for a recreational rider. The simple fact that you have to use spacers means there's a problem with board/binding compatibility and someone should work on it

I guess metal is "the s--t" but at $1000+ for a board that is fragile and needs all this special care I just think it goes beyond reasonable, kinda likea 285cm board.

The durability of the metal board has gotten way better but its really some bindings are more likley to create a sharper pressure point then others. I really think we are just in a transition period, Metal had been used in skiis for so long it was easy to make metal boards.
The 4-hole mounting system is really the problem with the durability and option issue. Since most of the binding we ride were made premetal, There is really a niche that needs to be filled. The hangle helps but boards still break. Off course any board could break metal or wood. It used to be we broke alot of wood boards now we break alot of metal boards. It really is just that the metal can dent some thing glass could not do.

D-Sub
November 5th, 2007, 03:17 PM
and once it dents it creates a weak spot, right? makes sense

y'all can keep your metal boards. I'm not good enough to notice anyway, plus Im saving up for a 300cm custom.

Sinecure
November 5th, 2007, 03:22 PM
Im saving up for a 300cm custom.

Will that be a tandem?

skategoat
November 5th, 2007, 03:24 PM
Why not just use the stuff Catek uses? Makrolon. http://www.makrolon.com/BMS/DB-RSC/MakrolonCMSR6.nsf/id/go_for_makrolon_en

I'll even pay for the sheet as a joint venture if someone with some skill can cut me a couple of spacers.

D-Sub
November 5th, 2007, 03:41 PM
Will that be a tandem?

Trandem

cail
November 5th, 2007, 03:51 PM
I'll even pay for the sheet as a joint venture if someone with some skill can cut me a couple of spacers.

the distributor near me carries Makralon sheet. i'm still trying to narrow down between 3 materials (makralon is one of them). after i talk to some plastics people to make sure i'm not missing anything, and get prices i'll let you know what i decide to go with if you're interested. heck if it's cheap enough i'll get 2 or all 3 to test.

BlueB
November 5th, 2007, 04:54 PM
You sound like the guy to find out what the best commonly avalable materal may be, You mentioned lexon before, anything else? Just looking for function it is just a spacer really and the compresion force it receives is just hand turned screw pressure.
The only other info on the Plex I am using is the sku from home depot, it reads 7450799308

Tried searching Home depos site with 3 codes you mentioned, nothing returned. I think something is wrong with their search engine...

Polycarbonate is the 1st choice. Lexan and Makralon are the trade names by different manufacturers. Should be easy to get.

2nd choice is high-molecular polyethilene or polypropilene (cutting board), that's why I asked if anyone has tried it.
It is elastic, doesn't break or buckle, stable at temperature and moisture changes. Takes compression loads no probs. Selflubricating, too. I made some mast bearings out of it and it performed way better than alu alloy counterpart.
It is easilly available and cheap. Downside: a bitch to cut and send. Melts on high teperature caused by friction (when cut by grinding or high-speed saw).

Teflon sheet would be great too. However it's more expensive and not so readilly available.


I'll research the matter a bit more...

D-Sub
November 5th, 2007, 05:15 PM
how come you guys cant use high density rubber?

Bordy
November 5th, 2007, 05:19 PM
Thanks you for your help I did some reading also it sure looks loke some thing better then the Plex I am using is in order.

Sounds like Bob found Polycarbonate at a local store. Home Depot Bob

I used to ride a board with polypropilene side walls it was so sick! They were always fast. I beleave its also the materal used on resort rails. ( in the park) Then we discovered how to tie die it it was neet.

Bordy
November 5th, 2007, 05:21 PM
how come you guys cant use high density rubber?

board feel and respose. Temprature issues.

There are a ton of ways to make it better. If I had any money I would give it a try.

D-Sub
November 5th, 2007, 05:24 PM
you mean it's too squishy?

if the idea is just protection, wouldnt you want the thinnest possible? sorry to ask so many questions..just curious.

Bordy
November 5th, 2007, 05:34 PM
Well part of the gig is we are trying to keep the board from bending around the binding and denting. So by adding the thicker plate (alltough it does not affect board flex) it allows the board something smooth and slippery to bend against. If its thick it helps the board bend more with out hinging becuase the binding if further away from the board. In a perfect world the board gets no disruption at all (hangle plate) so then there is no hinge or pressure point loading.

lonerider
November 5th, 2007, 05:46 PM
I just looked at Catek they want 80 bones for a setIs there any reason for this? Because they use a shiny CNC machine to shape them?

cail
November 5th, 2007, 05:50 PM
2nd choice is high-molecular polyethilene or polypropilene

those are basically the other two materials i want to look at..

1. polycarbonate (Makrolon or Lexan)
2. ultra-high molecular weight polyethylene (UHMW-PE)
3. Polypropylene copolymer

i think the Sflex is a rubber material with metal (titanal?) pieces inside.

you want to get the thickness right so that the stress distribution becomes uniform over the base area of the plate/riser.

bobdea
November 5th, 2007, 06:24 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200168388439

pretty sure the stuff I found was Hyzod like pictured here

cail
November 5th, 2007, 06:30 PM
nice... hyzod was the previous name for makrolon

Derf
November 5th, 2007, 06:59 PM
Here is what I know from experience:

Polycarbonate is usually sold in 3 thickness in renovations stores:
3mm (1/8"), 4.5mm (3/16") and 6mm (1/4")

Cutting boards are made from HDPE, or high density polyethylene, very common plastic.

Acrylic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymethyl_methacrylate
HDPE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_density_polyethylene
Polycarbonate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarbonate

yyzcanuck
November 8th, 2007, 09:28 AM
I also try and educate riders on metal boards about the new feel of metal under there feet and encourage all metal board riders to try softer boots and bindings if they have the chance.
I've witnessed the progression of boot/binding changes with our National Team. Riders there have made nearly a 180 degree change in their equipment. As metal boards progressed, some riders have gone from the stiffest DeeLuxe 'team only' boots (INDY and Lemans 325's) to standard INDY, then Suzuka, now Track 325's and Track 700's. Binding selection changed too. All metal construction has been replaced with what might be considered soft or more forgiving plastic and Titanal.

I consider myself privileged to be able to ride the latest COILER metal boards due to my friendship with Bruce, to have the financial means to buy a Hangl-Spirig, VIST and S-Flex just to play with, and have the industry connections to allow me to use boots of my choice. I can say with all conviction... softer is the way to go if you can afford it. It means the whole package, not just the board, or the bindings, or the boots.

Now you might ask what do I actually ride? How about this... a 5 season old COILER RC180II, standard construction, Raichle (yeah, Raichle!!) SB325 boots, and F2 INTEC™ Ti bindings. Soft? Nope but it works as a package. If I ever make the transition to a new Titanal board construction it will include an isolation plate system, standard bindings and boots with more flex.

cail
November 8th, 2007, 09:33 AM
what would be your complete setup if you had a new metal Coiler (plates, boots, bindings)?

yyzcanuck
November 8th, 2007, 09:45 AM
Because we're the F2 & DeeLuxe distributor, it would most certainly be F2 Race Ti, S-Flex, Track 325. My only variation from that would possibly be INTEC™ Ti bindings to help alleviate any problems with my 'donuts for breakfast' habit!!
Does that mean the other manufacturers' equipment isn't suitable? Nope. I'm biased because of my industry position.

Oh, I almost forgot... of course I'd be using some of Fin's latest boot laces as suspenders to hold up my wool pants, duct tape to keep my mitts from falling apart and a grease/oil stained leather SkiDoo jacket!!

Bordy
November 8th, 2007, 09:56 AM
It appears to me that stress distribution or redistribution does not adequately address the problem. A detailed failure analysis, backed by FE analysis and applied mechanics and applied mathematics need to be performed while taking into consideration the composite structure and the various adhesives and the core.

Haven broken a non metal board in similar fashion to metal ones, I think the problem may lie deeper than the surface. There is no doubt that the interface contribute to the problem but it is not the real culprit, I think.

I have seen old Volant boards dented and even bent and they never fail like the new generation of boards. I know a Penn transplant that was riding a bent volant for some time and wondered why his carving sucked and quickly corrected it by putting him on a Nidecker Tornado GS, the one with titanal.



Bola

www.allboardssports.com (http://www.allboardssports.com)
1-303-415-1600

I think there is a huge difference between the volant stanless fiber glass construction and new titnal carbon fiber construction and also because of the camber profile on Kesslers in particuloar(and some prior and virus metal shapes) the new longer noses set back stances contribute much fore forces then ever before.

I had a local freind who Dowd had hooked up with a stack of the aggressions, I never really liked them becuase the tails were just to soft for my style of riding. But we did break a bunch , have them delam and dent. but not in the same way most current metal boards break.

I have of course snapped non metal boards also but the new titnal boards were breaking in almost the same place for every one.

MUD
November 8th, 2007, 10:24 AM
It appears to me that stress distribution or redistribution does not adequately address the problem. A detailed failure analysis, backed by FE analysis and applied mechanics and applied mathematics need to be performed while taking into consideration the composite structure and the various adhesives and the core.

That would give you the theoretical answer...... After a HUGE amount of work.

Tons of variables! FEA works best when you can isolate variables.

I say, if the isolation plates work, go for it!

OR, you could always try and talk the manufactures into doing the work.

It would be a fun project though.

Jamar
November 8th, 2007, 05:48 PM
I've witnessed the progression of boot/binding changes with our National Team. Riders there have made nearly a 180 degree change in their equipment. As metal boards progressed, some riders have gone from the stiffest DeeLuxe 'team only' boots (INDY and Lemans 325's) to standard INDY, then Suzuka, now Track 325's and Track 700's. Binding selection changed too. All metal construction has been replaced with what might be considered soft or more forgiving plastic and Titanal.

I consider myself privileged to be able to ride the latest COILER metal boards due to my friendship with Bruce, to have the financial means to buy a Hangl-Spirig, VIST and S-Flex just to play with, and have the industry connections to allow me to use boots of my choice. I can say with all conviction... softer is the way to go if you can afford it. It means the whole package, not just the board, or the bindings, or the boots.

Now you might ask what do I actually ride? How about this... a 5 season old COILER RC180II, standard construction, Raichle (yeah, Raichle!!) SB325 boots, and F2 INTEC Ti bindings. Soft? Nope but it works as a package. If I ever make the transition to a new Titanal board construction it will include an isolation plate system, standard bindings and boots with more flex.

Funny that's almost straight out of the Swoard equipment/set up page:
http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=150
or
http://www.extremecarving.com/tech/mat.html
quote:

"Boot<o></o>
Difficult to find really high-performance hardboots today. They are either too soft, either too hard, because the ankle joint is controlled by a totaly primitive system (usually free or blocked). The own material of the shell must bend itself (like with freestyle boots) and so, this doesn't allow a rigorous ankle rotation control.<o></o><o></o>

A Brand (Nothwave) had understood it and put on the market in 1997 or 1998, two fabulous models (man and woman). The very stiff shell had an ankle joint controlled with an ingenious springs system with a lot of tuning possibilities. The foot, very well hold in a very comfortable inner shoe, was perfectly controlled thanks to the help of the springs which worked as calf muscle reinforcement. On the piste, the feeling was a bit like in the powder where the calf power is sufficient to vary the ankle canting while feeling totally safe, because the shell is stiff enough to prevent overbending.<o></o>

Northwave boot<o></o><o></o>

Unfortunately, the decrease of the alpine market forced this manufacturer to stop its production...

Those who follow the ISF Worldcup noticed perhaps that a lot of racers still use them, even the champions like the Schoch brothers (the yellow boots with black tong).<o></o>
We take care of ours with love an devotion...<o></o>

If you know a really high-performance hard-boot, please tell us, sothat we could test and advise it. The brand Deeluxe is not excellent but it has the merit to exist. We recommand rather the HEAD Stratos Pro, provided you modifiy and soften them. See the articles about the shoes in the FAQ of the Forum.<o></o>"

dingbat
November 8th, 2007, 07:25 PM
We recommand rather the HEAD Stratos Pro, provided you modifiy and soften them. See the articles about the shoes in the FAQ of the Forum.<O></O>

Which forum?

Jamar
November 8th, 2007, 07:59 PM
http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2701

by the way, not ment to be us against them discussion again...just personal preferences. Ride how you want as long as you have a nice El Nina year!!!

Peace.:ices_ange

And now, back to our regular programing...bindings on Titanal boards...

cail
November 8th, 2007, 09:28 PM
hey jamar, thanks for the info!

anewell
November 8th, 2007, 10:13 PM
BlueB mentioned Teflon / PTFE -

You can get it in sheets from Small Parts Inc:

http://www.smallparts.com/products/descriptions/vt-vte.cfm

along with Delrin, UHMW Polyethelene, Polycarbonate, and other interesting materials too.

MUD
November 9th, 2007, 06:57 AM
I wouldnb't use Teflon, it creeps BIG TIME. The pressure from the binding will cause it to flow. You will have a hard time keeping the bindings tight.

It may work for the purpose really well though, just keep an eye on the binding bolts.

Terryw
November 9th, 2007, 09:48 AM
You guys are making me worry. I have a new Coiler 177 AM T that is due to be dellivered next week. I was planning to mount TD-2 Si with the yellow elastimer on top of the suspension system. Also riding suzukas with yellow springs. Nice and soft all the way around. Do you think I should still be worried?

Hans
November 9th, 2007, 09:59 AM
You guys are making me worry. I have a new Coiler 177 AM T that is due to be dellivered next week. I was planning to mount TD-2 Si with the yellow elastimer on top of the suspension system. Also riding suzukas with yellow springs. Nice and soft all the way around. Do you think I should still be worried?

I have the same setup on my 180II RC. Can't see any dings in the topsheet.

Must be no problem because if you read the topics carefully the TD2's with the yellow are usable/preferred for the T. boards.

Chris Houghton
November 9th, 2007, 10:33 AM
If you're concerned about what bindings are OK to use on your Coiler, ask Bruce. He will know what's safe and what's not.

bobdea
November 9th, 2007, 10:50 AM
layer of polycarbonate might still be a good idea

Mike T
November 9th, 2007, 11:50 AM
If you're concerned about what bindings are OK to use on your Coiler, ask Bruce. He will know what's safe and what's not.

Here is what he said when I asked him "should I use a suspension kit with my TD2s on my AM 172 T with topsheet".


"Never seen that suspension kit so not really sure what it would do. The
metal top boards are most exposed to denting. I do put in some extra
reinforcing from the bottom to support the inserts but not as much as a
regular board. This will keep them from pulling out but does nothing for the
denting. I had a kid ride a metal top board all last season with TD2s and
it was fine. The topsheet boards have extra durability beyond that so I'm
pretty sure normal TD2s will be fine. Using Cateks on those MAY work also
but I wouldn't risk it.
Can't see the TD2s being an issue and that is part of the reason I am going
for the tops."

Ernie00
November 9th, 2007, 03:05 PM
I'm receiving my custom RC180 metal too today and this post got my worried.

I talked to Bruce today and he said with the topsheet he put over the metal is shouldn't be an issue they are very resistant.

So I'll just go with the TD2 and yelllow elastomer no suspension kit.

Terryw
November 9th, 2007, 05:35 PM
I asked Bruce about this also, and he said pretty much the same thing to me about the young rider on the other metal board and TD-2 Bindings. I am still going to put the suspension kit between bindings and my precious board ;) .

I bet Bruce is getting tired of answering this question over and over again! Oh well, if you want to be on the cutting edge sometimes you have to take some risks. I am sure this topic will come up again after we all have some real world experience to report back on. Hope I am smiling when I make those reports! :biggthump

Bordy
November 9th, 2007, 06:54 PM
I am sure this topic will come up again after we all have some real world experience to report back on. Hope I am smiling when I make those reports! :biggthump


Metal board on the race scene for 5 years, No athletes over 115 or so pounds directly mount bindings to metal boards currently world wide. Top sheet or not. Almost all US team athletes run some thing also.

Seems real enough to me to take precaution....... I haven't direct mounted since having metal boards fail.

cail
November 9th, 2007, 06:58 PM
i got a 3/16" sheet of polycarb (Hyzod...aka Makrolon) from ebay. gonna use this under F2s.

Bordy
November 9th, 2007, 07:02 PM
Here is what he said when I asked him "should I use a suspension kit with my TD2s on my AM 172 T with topsheet".


"Using Cateks on those MAY work also
but I wouldn't risk it."

Straight from Bruce he has seen first hand what Cateks do to metal boards why he and JJ were figuring it out.

I know about the issue also hence my problem with the manufactor.

Mike T
November 9th, 2007, 09:00 PM
Straight from Bruce he has seen first hand what Cateks do to metal boards why he and JJ were figuring it out.

I know about the issue also hence my problem with the manufactor.

OK, no question about concerns with Cateks :eek:

Here is a snippet from your earlier post, #5 on this thread:


With some bindings you may still want to take added measures using the suspension kits for bombers and the extra D3 thing for cateks. With the Plex pad

Said post includes a story about a broken back, you've got my attention.

Even after seeing words straight from Bruce's keyboard, do you still think that TD2's (with or without suspension kit) should not be used on a metal + topsheet deck without a plate of some sort? I'm guessing you will answer yes (yes, shouldn't be used without a plate), just wanted to check.

In any case, here is what Home Depot sells in terms of polycarbonate sheets:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100244149&marketID=77&locStoreNum=4008

(They carry many sized sheets, but it's all the same stuff - .091" which is about 3/32" or 2.38mm)

Would one of these sheets under each binding do the job? A number about twice that size was being thrown around before. Would it be a bad idea to simply stack two of them on top of each other?

Anyone know of a chain that sells thicker sheets?

Also, having never worked with polycarbonate, would an everyday hacksaw and drill suffice for cutting and drilling it?

cail
November 10th, 2007, 06:26 AM
Mike, there's a place called Curbell Plastics (www.curbellplastics.com). I know of that one cause they have a branch here in albany. Also check ebay. search for Hyzod (now called Makrolon). That's what i ordered (~$10 plus shipping-where i ordered shipping was also $11...more than the sheet itself).

Bordy
November 10th, 2007, 08:45 AM
I would run the plates under any binding I use.

Even the picture scott from catek posted in another post showed girls runing the plate on SG boards which have a topsheet much like coliers.

You guys can do what ever you want. I'm running at minimum the spacer(polycarb, polypro) 5mm plate on all my metal boards with F2s. If I was running TD2 I would run the plate and the suspension kit. Just my out look, If the boardbuilder you are riding says your cool with out a plate hopefully if any thing happens the board builder will honor that call and take care of you IF there is an issue. Your call we are all grown ups.

I would look to what riders on metal boards in a race course are doing.

I am sure you could stack the home depot plate. I am not but again your call.

Mike T
November 10th, 2007, 02:50 PM
These guys have some decent prices, for those like me who cannot find 3/16" polycarbonate locally:

http://freckleface.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product83.html

The 12x12 sheets at $4 a pop looked really tempting until I realized that each TD2 would eat up a whole sheet, and I could get 3 to a sheet from 12x24. Thinking that 10x7.5 is about the right size.

If anyone knows any reason why I should *not* try cutting this stuff with a hack saw or drilling with a standard drill please speak up.

Derf
November 10th, 2007, 03:30 PM
If anyone knows any reason why I should *not* try cutting this stuff with a hack saw or drilling with a standard drill please speak up.

Polycarbonate and Lexan, it's okay. Use a fine tooth saw, like a metal saw or bigger teeth, but not as big as a wood saw. Acrylic or plexiglas, be very very careful, it can shatter easily. Always use eye protection. But I guess everyone realized "polycarbonate good, acrylic bad" by now.

vapor
November 10th, 2007, 03:31 PM
After hacksawing file it smooth so there is no tendency for cracks to develope on the rough edge from the blade.

Kirk
November 10th, 2007, 05:13 PM
Thinking that 10x7.5 is about the right size.

If anyone knows any reason why I should *not* try cutting this stuff with a hack saw or drilling with a standard drill please speak up.

Mike,

EXACTLY the dimensions I came up with.

Don't know about the material that you have now, but DON'T try your standard 3/8" drill with regular plexiglass. Bought a small sheet just to play around with - way too brittle. I'm going to stay away from the acrylic stuff.

abakker
November 10th, 2007, 05:54 PM
plexiglass=very very very bad idea. as we have seen here, it is brittle and not durable, nor flexible. if you use plexiglass, and ride hard, there is a good chance that it will break from the cold and flexing and loosen sufficiently for you to overstrain your inserts. the potential for bad results is much too high.

polycarbonate on the other hand is what they make industrial safety glasses and goggles out of. it is easy to work as well as strong and temperature tolerant.

these materials are NOT the same, please do not make that mistake if you are going to make your own risers.

bobdea
November 10th, 2007, 06:17 PM
if it's polycarbonate have no worries, drill and saw it with whatever it gets hot though with fine blades

Mike T
November 10th, 2007, 06:54 PM
It is indeed polycarbonate that I've got on the way. I'll post some pix when I'm done - won't be cosmetically beautiful but should be quite functional.

bobdea
November 10th, 2007, 07:09 PM
make sure you get some high quality screw!

Thumper
November 11th, 2007, 02:09 AM
If you are making your own spacers, make sure to round off the bottom edges of the spacer -otherwise you still have a sharp, 90 degree edge that can dimple the board.

Hans
November 11th, 2007, 08:02 AM
I think the lack of snow is causing a lot of folks to act crazy lately. Why are you all wasting your time building a kludge plate when you can buy a real thing made professionally with precision? Spend good money for a nice beautiful metal board to put an eyesore plastic on it :eek: .

Not even talking about the performance disadvantage. The metal-plastic interface has got to be problematic on many fronts.

Bola

You are definately right. New website from Catek is up with beautiful spacers:
Catek Spacers (http://www.catek.com/snowboard-binding-spacers.htm) and beautiful Kessler KST boards :1luvu: :1luvu:

carvedog
November 11th, 2007, 08:34 AM
I would run the plates under any binding I use.

Even the picture scott from catek posted in another post showed girls runing the plate on SG boards which have a topsheet much like coliers.

You guys can do what ever you want. I'm running at minimum the spacer(polycarb, polypro) 5mm plate on all my metal boards with F2s. If I was running TD2 I would run the plate and the suspension kit. Just my out look, If the boardbuilder you are riding says your cool with out a plate hopefully if any thing happens the board builder will honor that call and take care of you IF there is an issue. Your call we are all grown ups.

I would look to what riders on metal boards in a race course are doing.

I am sure you could stack the home depot plate. I am not but again your call.

Bordy. Wha'ts up? Are you using spell check? I for one miss the unfiltered typing from you. Just the passion of the moment, almost stream of consciousness driven, even if it does ruffle a few feathers.

Bordy
November 11th, 2007, 08:41 AM
Nope no spell check on that post, I quess I just got lucky!

I'm sure there will be many more rants straight from the brain.

:biggthump

Terryw
November 11th, 2007, 09:42 AM
I think the lack of snow is causing a lot of folks to act crazy lately. Why are you all wasting your time building a kludge plate when you can buy a real thing made professionally with precision? Spend good money for a nice beautiful metal board to put an eyesore plastic on it :eek: .

Not even talking about the performance disadvantage. The metal-plastic interface has got to be problematic on many fronts.

Bola

www.allboardssports.com (http://www.allboardssports.com)
1-303-415-1600

What are the spacers on your Kessler? Hard to tell from the image. And it appears as you have doubled layered them. Just curious. They sure don't look like the Catek spacers!

Mike T
November 11th, 2007, 10:14 AM
I think the lack of snow is causing a lot of folks to act crazy lately. Why are you all wasting your time building a kludge plate when you can buy a real thing made professionally with precision? Spend good money for a nice beautiful metal board to put an eyesore plastic on it :eek: .

Not even talking about the performance disadvantage. The metal-plastic interface has got to be problematic on many fronts.

Bola

www.allboardssports.com (http://www.allboardssports.com)
1-303-415-1600


Can you elaborate on your comment on a metal/plastic interface being problematic? I'm in need of some education here as I suspect are many readers.


To be brutally honest I'm not concerned about eyesores, the Track 700's (and many past Raichle and Deeluxe boots) are already eyesores. I'll already be sporting a pair of those so what's a little Lexan under the bindings next to those?

jp1
December 31st, 2008, 08:05 AM
OK, it's been over a year since the last post. Yea, I'm behind everyone else (been off the board for 2 years) but want to ride as soon as the weather ever decides to co-operate.
Since I bought a used Metal Coiler, I've been reading everything I can for the past couple of days about board/binding interface. I have Catek Olympic SI's (OS1's) with the standard elastomer so have some concerns. I will at the minimum for now make a 'distribution plate' as Bordy and others recommended out of .100"-.250" Polycarbonate whatever we have (luckily I work with it often) and of coarse compensate for the added thickness with longer stainless steel screws. I'm thinking 7 1/2" X 11", radiused corners and edges.

My question is, since it has been over a year, what are some of your experiences with what you made yourself. What are some of the Pro's & Con's? Are you happy with the results? What would you do different? Larger,Smaller? Different material? Did you notice any difference in ride or performance?
Just curious, I always seem to get a good input here. :)

Thanks-jp

cail
December 31st, 2008, 09:29 AM
my plates ended up working out just fine... my board did break but not due to the bindings or riser plates.

doing it differently i would not use a dremel tool to cut by hand :rolleyes: but i think i had mentioned that already. maybe make them a bit longer and not parallelogram shape. no real reason for those observations.

jp1
December 31st, 2008, 10:30 AM
Sorry to hear about your board.
Yea, I seen where someone had posted a to use a fine blade. I've found that a fine blade tends to over heat (melt) the polycarbonate and ball up thus clogging the blade easily, unless you run it at an extremely slow speed. Personally I have found a coarse blade in a bandsaw the best. If you don't have access to a bandsaw a coarse blade (like a wood blade) in a variable speed jig saw is awesome. When you hit the right speed their is hardly any finishing work needed, other than light sanding.
I was thinking the same thing as far as shape. I guess some use the parallelogram shape because that's the direction the binding sits on the board and you probably wouldn't turn the binding the other direction, and or estetics? I'm more interested in dispersing the maximum amount of energy over as big of an area as practical. I even tossed around the idea of making one large plate to cover the area of both bindings (sort of shaped like the VIST plate, open in the middle between bindings) to try to get all of the energy to the edges of the board. But I think that may inhibit the way the board was designed to work, I feel keeping feet independent may be better for general riding?
Thanks for the feedback & Happy New Year--jp

Mike T
December 31st, 2008, 02:58 PM
I've got several metal Coilers, all with topsheets over the metal, and don't use anything to isolate bindings from board. No problem so far.

jp1
December 31st, 2008, 03:51 PM
Mike T, This particular board has the metal top sheet. Bruce was nice enough to answer an email I had sent him. I don't have the board in hand yet, and didn't ask for the numbers when purchased, but it sounds like it is one of the earlier ones that did have issues with Cateks mounted to them. It's not what I wanted to hear, but I APPRECIATE the Truth, at least now know I need to try something.
Thanks for the reply, Happy New Year--jp

Mike T
December 31st, 2008, 04:13 PM
If you're got the topsheetless version (titanal layer is the topsheet) than I would heartily agree that isolation is good.

James Ong
January 1st, 2009, 02:07 AM
My question is, since it has been over a year, what are some of your experiences with what you made yourself. What are some of the Pro's & Con's? Are you happy with the results? What would you do different? Larger,Smaller? Different material? Did you notice any difference in ride or performance?
Just curious, I always seem to get a good input here. :)

Thanks-jp

I used clear lexan and the only thing that bugs me is that it looks like hell from all the water stains, Maybe a solid color if it doesn't clash too much with the topsheet ?
Or i could just clean the damn things once in a while :p

jp1
January 1st, 2009, 11:27 AM
James, Thanks, I was wondering about that. I thought about painting it on the backside, but figured the paint would wear from the friction between the board and the riser and eventually create a mess. We have some 'smoke' tinted around that may be better than clear. If not, we have a Plastics Supplier in the area, I can buy colored polycarbonate from I think.

Has anyone painted theirs, if so how did it hold up?

After seeing the results :eek: of riding on Titanal toposheets the past couple of days (sick, seeing all these boards breaking) starting to re-think this whole thing. I may go with a 1 huge plate (shaped similar to a conshox)? Even thinking about making the spacer out of .060" 6061 Aluminum and sandwhich a thin layer of teflon (.020"ish) between the plate and the board. :confused:
Yes, I think it will effect the boards performance :( but maybe it will keep it in 1 piece and rideable ??

corey_dyck
January 1st, 2009, 11:41 AM
Don't span the two bindings! You'll put a huge amount of stress into the inserts and dramatically affect the stiffness between the bindings.

You could go as long as you want though as long as there's a gap between the plates. This will still affect the stiffness, but only a fraction as much as connecting both bindings.

jp1
January 1st, 2009, 01:03 PM
cory, that makes sense (the stress on the inserts) something I hadn't thought of. Maybe the better bet would be to go with the 2 piece idea (Alum. & Teflon), split the Aluminum (top piece) and leave the Teflon underneath in one piece as it will flex ? I'm trying to keep the weight in consideration also. I actually think the 2 piece system may be lighter also, as Polycarbonate is pretty heavy.

Thanks, anyone else ? -- jp

b0ardski
January 1st, 2009, 01:20 PM
The conshox plate mounts to the front but "floats" between the board & rear binding to prevent stress on the inserts.
There's one for sale on ebay.

jp1
January 1st, 2009, 02:01 PM
b0ardski, I seen the link on the For Sale board before, but couldn't link to it.
I just checked it out. I've seen them on boards in pictures but never seen one in person, so without seeing it don't totaly understand how it works. Sounds like it's basically a full plate that 'floats' on the topsheet ? Is it a Carbon Fiber material or a just a fake CF finish? It looks pretty thick (height), so I'm guessing it is hollow? If it is hollow underneath, is their a layer that contacts the whole topsheet surface of the board? If not do you think it would still help keeping the Titanal topsheet from buckling? Any experience with them?
I guess I can get the Specs. (width) by going to the F2 site and finding the widths of the boards they are on? Doesn't sound like the Seller want's to be bothered. Do you have any idea of what they 'go for' in a store? Seems anymore, ebay is not for buyers as much as sellers. Many times I've bid on things that ended up selling higher than what I could buy them and have them shipped to me for.
3 days left, it's in my Watch List.

Thanks -- jp

b0ardski
January 1st, 2009, 02:15 PM
No 1st hand experience, I would have bid on it and kept quiet but I'm broke.