Soft Boot Carving [Archive] - Bomber Carving Community

Tim Kienitz

March 1st, 2004, 06:41 PM

Lonerider,
I agree. What's the point? I am curious why a skilled hardbooter would convert to softies. Maybe it's just a matter of the rider, not the set up. That's why when someone asks me, " How do you like that board?" Sometimes I can only say, "Oh, it's alright." The set up is only as good as the rider. I, like some other riders, am striving for perfection and am rarely satisfied with ones skills.
It sounds like Doug M is a really good rider to be able to carve hard with softies but as far as versatility, I can only guess why he chooses the soft set up. It's the different challenge. After reaching a certain level, perhaps Doug M after 16 years of plates just needed change, to prove that he could also carve with equipment that is harder to carve. Change is good. In another 16 years he might be back to hardboots. I feel that hardboots can be just as versatile as softies while even more challenging to master. I am not a good example but look at the extreme skiers, bump skiers and freestyle skiers doing big air inverted fakie jumps, all with hardboots. It just takes perseverance and skill.
Master it all, weigh the limitations, then pick which works the best.

Tim

Mellow Yellow

March 1st, 2004, 06:49 PM

that's nothing....Shred was laying down turns on his soft set-up at the SVES this past month......

NateW

March 1st, 2004, 08:02 PM

Got any pictures of heelside carves?

Where do you find a softie board with a sidecut over 10 meters? For me, the tight radii would be almost as annoying as the low stance angles and lack of support.

And lastly, what is it you can do better in soft boots than in hard? The only thing I've found so far (6-7 years on soft, almost 10 on hard) is tweaky airs. With hard boots I'm pretty much stuck with tail grabs and methods... but it's a small price to pay.

brodster_57

March 1st, 2004, 09:09 PM

Can you carve on soft boots well? Yes. Can you jump or even slide rails on hardboots? Yes. Can soft boots carve just as good as hard boots? Well maybe. It would have to be completely circumstantial in my opinion. But, all things being equal of course, the obvious answer is no. Same goes with jumping and rails on hardboots. And lets not forget that we are snowboarding...not skiing. But I will agree that it is very possible to carve well well a softy setup. Even at relatively flat angles ( 24 and 9 ) I can get that low on toesides quite easily. With my new Donek 169 I can get my arse to touch the snow on heelside before booting out if the conditions are good. I love carving on my softy setup, but regardless of that and what is possible on a softy setup hardboots will outperform softies anyday. But if it is fun and you really enjoy it go for it. Nothing pisses off hardbooters more than a guy on softies outcarving them. And I would agree that soft boots give more versatility on the whole mountain than your average hardboot. Oh yeah that Donek 169 has a 10.26 sidecut radius. It turns like a GS board and has unbelievable speed stability. That board was a hair humbling at first with soft boots controlling it, but after a day or two I love it...finally heelside turns that are really smooth at low angles!!! And talk about challenging...CARVING tight short radius turns on that board was very difficult. I really have to use the torsional flex to get the board to turn tight or use a cross-under push and pull technique to get it to carve tight.

gdboytyler

March 1st, 2004, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Doug M
I am going to be at Killington the weekend of the 13th-14th.Anyone who would like to ride with me is more then welcome to join me for a late winter session to be followed by a nice cold beer.It's all good

Doug M

Since I'm in California, it would be much cheaper for me if you take some video footage on your Killington trip and show us what kind of a ripper you really are on a soft-setup.

garyj

March 1st, 2004, 10:32 PM

Lighten up on the guy! So he came on a little strong on the softie set up. You'll have to admit that one turn looked good. This is what is all about, everyone approaching the sport with a little different perspective.

Like to see you make some carves, sounds like you might rip pretty hard? I'm often in Mammoth, maybe sometime we can make some turns togther. GC

gdboytyler

March 1st, 2004, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by garyj
Lighten up on the guy! So he came on a little strong on the softie set up. You'll have to admit that one turn looked good. This is what is all about, everyone approaching the sport with a little different perspective.

Like to see you make some carves, sounds like you might rip pretty hard? I'm often in Mammoth, maybe sometime we can make some turns togther. GC

The photo that Doug M. posted is NOT Doug M. And yes, the carver in the photo (Ken DelRossi) looks pretty good.

I'm a competent carver and I can carve in soft boots/freestyle board and hardboots/alpine board. I know my carving is a lot better on the hard setup.

I'll be riding at Snow Summit this coming weekend. I'll probably be going to Mammoth one more time in March. It would fun to meet up and do some runs together. I'll bring a digital camera and we can film each other.

I was hoping to get video footage yesterday, but my riding partner cancelled at the last minute. Great conditions at Snow Summit, camera in the car, but no one to take the footage.

philw

March 2nd, 2004, 08:26 AM

You're talking about that dive-for-the-snow type of "carving", which is fine if you like that sort of thing, but it's a subset of carving. I carve, but I don't dive. Of course you can carve on soft gear; how do you think they get height in the pipe?

I dare say there'll come a day when I can't buy race boots, bindings and boards. I'm not suddenly going to turn into a side-slipper, so on that day you'll be getting passed by me on soft gear too;)

That's a very impressive photograph of a snow-diving chappie using soft gear. It would still be a good picture, but not so impressive, if he was using hard gear. We all already know the reason: it's much easier to carve well on hard gear. What more needs to be said?

soft chappies What works best - gear, angles etc? What differences in approach are required to drive the floppy stuff? Are you faster on soft gear or hard? How do you stop those soft boots hurting your feet?

Todd Stewart

March 2nd, 2004, 01:35 PM

If anyone thinks they can carve as well on a soft set they obviously don't know how to properly use their plates. Nothing beats the feeling of negative Gs (being weightless) in the transition of turns, I can't see too many people being able to do that on softies since I only know a hand full of plate riders
who can do it on every turn.

boostertwo

March 2nd, 2004, 02:07 PM

Got any pictures of heelside carves?

<center>http://www.keyssonline.com/2new-carve.jpg</center>

You could race the Tour de France on a mountain bike. But you would not likely be sportin' le maillot jaune.

On the links, you could hit drives using your putter. You would not likely make the leader board.

Most of our snowboard pros at Vail/Beaver Creek can rip arcs on their soft setups. Could they rip harder if they were on plates? Most likely yes, but they would then sacrifice the freestyle and all-mountain performance they enjoy on soft setups.

Tim Kienitz

March 2nd, 2004, 03:38 PM

boostertwo

March 2nd, 2004, 04:02 PM

Some tricks might be harder to do with hardboots, but they are still possible. It just takes more work and talent. The rider that can do everything using hardboots (tricks and carving) would be the better rider because of the degree of difficulty mastered combined with the superior performing equipment.
Well, I guess. I don't think, however, that for freestyle applications, hard boot setups are 'superior performing equipment'. I don't think it's by accident that the best freestylers in the world use soft setups for freestyle events; the configuration obviously works best to achieve that particular outcome.

Is it a better brain surgeon who could perform lobotomies using a chainsaw instead of a scalpel? I guess you could say yes...and it would seem to be an even better surgeon still if they could perform the surgery with one hand, with their eyes closed.

For my money, I'd rather have my next lobotomy from the guy with the scalpel. But I'd want to build my next log home with the guy with the chainsaw.

IMHO, the best situation is to have both soft and hard boot setups and to use each one in the situations where it provides optimal performance.

Tim Kienitz

March 2nd, 2004, 04:28 PM

Boostertwo,
So you are saying using hardboots for tricks is like using a chainsaw for operations? Hardboots are really that difficult ? I would like to think that there is more potential in hardboots than that and using hardboots for freestyle is like using the right scalpel with an uncomfortable handle. The current freestyle champions are mainly conforming to the mainstream equipment which is inherently more forgiving. Maybe I am wrong, but I will continue trying... just as long as I am having fun.
Will the future of freestyle skiers be in softboots? :)
Tim

lonerider

March 2nd, 2004, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by Tim Kienitz
Boostertwo,
Why would you sacrifice all mountain and freestyle performance using hardboots? Earlier I gave the example of the freestyle skiers using hardboots to do all their tricks and maneuvers.

Will freestyle skiers start using softboots in the future?

That's not a good comparison because freestyle skiiers always wore hardboots and the technicaly requirement of freestyle skiing is different from freestyle snowboarding.

Some tricks might be harder to do with hardboots, but they are still possible. It just takes more work and talent. The rider that can do everything using hardboots (tricks and carving) would be the better rider because of the degree of difficulty mastered combined with the superior performing equipment.
Tim

Anyone with a basic knowledge of freestyle and alpine gear would realize that it is extremely difficult to do either activity at the top level with the opposite set of gear. Sure someone in softboot can carve turns, but they will never achieve the level of ability that they would in a hardboot setup. Similarly a person in hardboots could take a jump, spin, even do rails - but never at the level that they could in softboots.

In reply to Tim's post - yes it is possible, but I don't think it is very probable... in fact I doubt any pro freestyler could come close to their performance in hardboots, much in the same was a GS racer wouldn't will never be winning big competition races on a freestyle board and hardboots.

Anyone who believes otherwise is either ignorant of the specific equipment needs of each activity, fooling himself/herself, or an *extremely* good rider (and I mean best in the world if even).

I will elaborate on the difficulties trying to do freestyle in hardboots as most people are aware of the diffficulties of the reverse.

First let's look at the board, alpine boards tend to longer and stiffer. Now while you want a stiff board for halfpipe, you don't want one that is too stiff to flex while you ride up between the pipe walls - you go fast in the pipe, but not as fast as you do in a GS course. Then there is the flex pattern, the nose of an alpine board is designed to dig into carves and absorb bumps... this will make it very "unforgiving" if the rider comes down a little off balance and will make it very had to ollie off off in when riding switch. Furthermore, the board is stiff between the bindings, make it great for freecarve, bad for ollies. Of course there is the lack of a rounded tail. With jibbing and rails, you want the board to be really flexy to allow you to do nosepresses and such.

So to ride more easily... you would want a shorter board with a centered stance, a softer even flex pattern, and a shorter sidecut to make quickier direction adjustments... oh an a rounded tail.... that sounds a lot like a freestyle board... doesn't it?

Then there are the boots/bindings. The first obvious problem is that hardboots weight a lot... my softboots weight about 2 lbs each, combined that less than what only one of my Raichles weight. As such it feels like you have two cement block on your feet when you do spins, ollies, shifties, etc... sure you can do them... but it's much harder.

In freestyle, "style" is important and that means being able to tweak the board, meaning you need a lot of flexbility to bending the boot side to side and front to back. "Bone-ing" out you board would be almost impossible unless you have tremendous leg strength, similarly with more tweaked grabs like nose grab or seatbelt grab (grabbing the tail of your board with the front hand).

So your would want more flexible boots and bindings that are light and allow you to lean and flex in any direction with minimal effort. Sounds a lot like freestyle boots.

Basically I see Tim K as the antithesis (opposite) or Doug M. Where one things everything can be done with softboots, the other things everything can be done in hardboots... personally I think both are wrong.

lonerider

March 2nd, 2004, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Tim Kienitz
Boostertwo,
So you are saying using hardboots for tricks is like using a chainsaw for operations? Hardboots are really that difficult ? I would like to think that there is more potential in hardboots than that and using hardboots for freestyle is like using the right scalpel with an uncomfortable handle. The current freestyle champions are mainly conforming to the mainstream equipment which is inherently more forgiving. Maybe I am wrong, but I will continue trying... just as long as I am having fun.
Will the future of freestyle skiers be in softboots? :)
Tim

It's when you say things like this that I don't think you really understand the technical requirements of freestyle. I just posted a length explanation of this. I think BoosterTwo's analogy is not altogether incorrect. For park and pipe riding you don't want the power and max speed that alpine setups excel at. For instance, that immediate responsiveness that comes with alpine boards and hardboots would often spell diaster if you off-balance on a jump or a halfpipe wall (as you are suppose to)

Hardboots and alpine boards have features that are an advantage in many situations, but in other situations these features become weaknesses. I believe there was another post on the XGames BoarderCross race where all the riders, including several WorldCup racers decided to use a softboot setup instead of a their normal hardboot setup. The point is NOT that one setup is superior to the other (although people on both sides keep trying to pump themselves up by asserting that). The point is that *are* situations in which softboots are preferred to hardboots and vice versa.

Finally, I would like to debunk your conspiracy theory that "current freestyle champions are mainly conforming to the mainstream equipment which is inherently more forgiving." considering most of them design their own boots and boards to the companies and therefore are not complete slaves to their companies and their freestyle pro models would start looking more like hardboot equipment - but it does not (freeriding models do have some features, but we are talking freestyle here). On a purely commercial perspective - companies would encourage pro riders to make their boards more unique to help differentiate them from other rival models. The Burton Dominant Slick is one such example (crappy board in my opinion since you can "only" do rails pretty much). Another example the Terje Haakonsen and his revival of the big powder board in the form of the Burton Fish.

Baka Dasai

March 2nd, 2004, 04:58 PM

Love that picture of the heelside carve in softies. It reminded me of something.

Here it is. Compare and contrast:

<img src="http://www.keyssonline.com/2new-carve.jpg">

<img src="http://64.78.63.45/live/billabong/mdka03/photos/aiwaterL.jpg">

Anyway, as for the original subject of the thread, I'm sure there are some people who can carve as hard in softies as in hard boots. I'm not one of them, and it doesn't seem like many people here are either. But carving is carving - it's all good, even the skiers.

But I like the comment that "nothing pisses off hardbooters more than a guy on softies outcarving them". That happened to me one day last season, and it did piss me off - I was humbled.

bobdea

March 2nd, 2004, 05:34 PM

but at low speeds
when I find a soft setup that turns like a burner 197 at comparable speeds I will give this idea more merit
but now that its on my mind are there any freeride boards with a big sidecut like say 13+ meters?
if so how do they ride

Tim Kienitz

March 2nd, 2004, 06:04 PM

Lonerider and Boostertwo,
You both have good points and thank you for enlightening me. I only have questions and no answers. And yes I do not know any of the technical requirements of freestyle. Maybe it's just that I don't like this separation in snowboarding (mainly because I am jealous that hardbooting is taking a back seat in development to its freestyle brother ). It would be nice to see in the future the best of both worlds combined. Hopefully in the future technology will help achieve this goal. Will technology continue to separate snowboarding styles or will it fuse it into one? On a smaller level, we already have better materials to improve the weight of hardboots so I cant wait until they are applied. Yes, Raichle's are expensive weak and heavy bricks that could easily be made to be ultra light and strong. Then I would be happy to pay the expensive price. Maybe next year.
Tim

Ken D

March 2nd, 2004, 07:18 PM

Hi...

It's me, ken.

I like beer.
Does anyone else like beer?

ken

Doug M

March 2nd, 2004, 09:10 PM

Thought I would let this go for while before jumping back in.I knew my post was going to stir the pot with some.Good.When I first started Boarding in the mid eighties I already was surfing and wanted to capture that feeling of a bottom turn that Baka Dasai posted.The G forces of the Bottom turn is what I wanted and from that first day out at Stratton that is what I craved.I skate boarded as a kid but to me snowboarding was about the turn even back then.The equipment was awful.Stop in the middle of a run to pull off the sorrels and tear off a broken open blister..The boots were too soft to have any control and had the fit of a bad work boot.Next up was a hybrid boot with a hard lower and soft upper.Better but still horrible fit.Next up Koflach hard boots with a plate binding with a rubber interface.It was OK but the boards out like the Kemper Screamer had the dampening of a guitar string . The equipment changed and it all had limitations but it was not about the equipment.It was all about the carve and finding something that would let me do it.

Fast forward to 1995.At this time I was on plates for quite some time and considered myself an accomplished carver and quite knowledgeable about carving and the equipment involved.I was a snowboard buyer for the largest single snow board shop in the U.S and did five times the alpine business of anyone else in the U.S.I set up more people on alpine gear then anyone out there and was able to get feedback from all the people I set up as Guinea pigs.Nothing against soft boots but they did not let me do what I wanted to do....Carve hard.That all changed that year When one of the reps I knew who was a racer totally out carved me on hard pack with a soft setup.What the F@ck.He must be a freak.

Fast forward to 1999.At this point my carving is at the level where I can carve any steep groomed terrain out their.Anything at Jackson Hole,Lower Ovation at Killington.Top to bottom on the super B lift at Copper.I used alpine boards to ride 3 feet of powder at Grand Targhee.I would switch to softies at times when the snow got real deep not because I couldn't ride it in my hard boots but because it was just a "better" tool in deep snow and variable terrain.I rode with guys like Will garrow who was a man ahead of his time and saw the best carvers out there.Was at the first expression session,E.C.E.S.It took my cateks and Proton, Renn Tiger,Donek to get to the ultimate level of carving.Hip checking the snow and dragging my elbow on every turn.I weeded out bindings like the original Bombers which had no adjustability as well as a base disc that was way too small and was unstable compared to the wider disc of the cateks.I would post such opinions and get a barrage of Idiotic insults from people like gdboytyler and tiledog who felt I was insulting them personally because I did not agree with the equipment they rode and give me a pseudo scientific(opinionated) lesson on why they were the best bindings in the world .Funny thing about the new Bombers.They all have a much larger disc with toe and heal lift.

This Brings me to Killington Vermont about the same time.I am going up up a lift and see someone coming down the glades area and is all of 4" off the snow on every turn.I don't think I ever saw Will Garrow get down like that on every turn.It ends up being Vin Q. on soft boots.WHAT THE F@CK!!He must be a freak.

No he is not a freak but an incredibly talented rider who found the right soft setup for him that has virtually no limitations.It took guys like Vin to open my eyes and Ken D's so that we can now carve any terrain on a soft setup.It took guys like Randy House and Vin Q to show us it can be done.If you don"t believe..Oh well.Maybe you will see a video or have someone on softies come by on his armpit before you finally get it.All the pontificating about the limitations of certain pieces of equipment don't mean squat if those"limitations are constantly being broken. On hard or soft boots.......It's all about the bottom turn.

Doug M

:eek: :eek:

gdboytyler

March 2nd, 2004, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Doug M
I weeded out bindings like the original Bombers which had no adjustability as well as a base disc that was way too small and was unstable compared to the wider disc of the cateks.I would post such opinions and get a barrage of Idiotic insults from people like gdboytyler and tiledog who felt I was insulting them personally because I did not agree with the equipment they rode and give me a pseudo scientific(opinionated) lesson on why they were the best bindings in the world .Funny thing about the new Bombers.They all have a much larger disc with toe and heal lift.

Doug M
:eek: :eek:

I've never posted anything about your opinions on Bombers. I also don't think I was insulting you. I just asked for you to back up your claims.

In the surfing world, 3-fin surfboards didn't get noticed until Simon Anderson started winning contests with them.

In our smaller world of alpine snowboarding, who would listen to the guys at extremecarving.com spout about their alternative alpine technique if they didn't have video footage for proof that their technique works?

I've only seen one freestyler in hardboots that was as good or better than his peers in softboots. That was Damien Sanders. At one time Damien was probably the most photographed snowboarder and he couldn't convert anybody to hardboots.

I haven't seen any snowboarder on softboots that could carve like a good snowboarder on a hard setup.

I’ve tried getting a good carving setup with softboots. From Burton strap bindings, Elfgen tongues and Koflach hybrid boots and now Solomon boots with Flow bindings. My soft setup pales in comparison to the hard setup for carving.

I’m open minded. If someone proves that a certain soft setup is the ultimate for carving, I’ll try out that setup and see if it works for me.

I’m just asking for the evidence.

lonerider

March 2nd, 2004, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by Doug M
(rant about softboots vs hardboots and a carving resume)

This seems to be sort of an obsession for you:
http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=3900#post3900

I can accept your general point that hardboots aren't the end-all for all snowboarders. That most people are probably better off getting softboots in the same way most car owners are probably better off buying a sedan over a SUV where a in many cases a experienced driver in a sedan will drive better than an inexperienced driver in an SUV. I guess this a point most people miss when they spend extra money on vehicles that offer superior "power" and "control."

However your message is getting a bit muddle in your rant-style postings. Is there anything else you are trying to say?

boostertwo

March 3rd, 2004, 07:17 AM

I've seen lots of folks rip in softies.

http://keyssonline.com/spike-carving.jpg

I certainly wish I could, but even using wide boards and 2cm lifters, I haven't yet found a setup that I can tilt high on edge w/o booting out (I am blessed with size 13 dogs).

Jack Michaud

March 3rd, 2004, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by lonerider
That most people are probably better off getting softboots in the same way most car owners are probably better off buying a sedan over a SUV

This metaphor is totally backwards. Freeride/style decks and softies are the SUV's, carving decks and hardboots are the sedans. No, sportscars. No, motorcycles!!

SUV's are commonly misused by people who think that they "need" an SUV when in fact they just don't.

So too with freeride/style decks. Unless you spend a significant amount of time in the pipe/park and/or riding fakie, there's really no reason for you to be on anything less than a boardercross board. Better yet, get an all-mtn carver. Yet for some reason boardercross boards haven't really caught on. Why? Because people think they "need" a board with a huge nose and tail when they just don't.

Don't even suggest that people don't need hardboots and race boards. Doug, nobody needs to convince you otherwise. I'm happy you like to carve on whatever. The world needs more carvers, regardless of equipment. But take ultracarve's advice and go evangelize to someone else. Arguing against a fact is pointless. The probability of you being right and an entire industry and racing organizations around the globe being wrong is zero.
-Jack

Neil Gendzwill

March 3rd, 2004, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by Jack Michaud

So too with freeride/style decks. Unless you spend a significant amount of time in the pipe/park and/or riding fakie, there's really no reason for you to be on anything less than a boardercross board. Better yet, get an all-mtn carver. Yet for some reason boardercross boards haven't really caught on. Why? Because people think they "need" a board with a huge nose and tail when they just don't.
What he said. Plus, just look at that softy heelside - doesn't that look uncomfortable and kinda dorky?

brodster_57

March 3rd, 2004, 08:51 AM

This is an interesting arguement. But we have to get back to the orginal post. Can softsboot carve as well as hardboots (if not better than hardboots) all things being equal of course. Many have argued that the new soft boots offer more support and are stiffer. Also that soft boot bindings now have more support and are stiffer. This is true, and the new equipment allows much better carving ability on softies. I think the problem is that people should stop seeing such a black and white difference between hard and soft boots. The hard booters think soft booters are a punch of punk kids with baggy pants, and the soft booters think hard booters are a bunch of skier panzies. And obviously it is just plain and simple stereo typing. Despite the fact that many on each side tend to fit right into the stereo type, we all still do the same thing...snowboard. Once you can get out of this thought pattern you can see that soft, hard, freestyle and race boards, boots, and bindings are all the same thing. But on different ends of the spectrum. Just like a handgun and a rifle are on either side of the spectrum. Is it possible to hit a target accurately at long distances with a handgun? Sure. In fact many may enjoy the "feel" of a handgun over a rifle. But does a rifle do the job better? Absolutely. It is just simple plysics. Now in the case of soft boots carving, you have to consider that soft boots are SOFT and that soft boot bindings are designed for freestyle or freeride with angles of about 35 degs or less. Hard boots on the other hand have an entirely different interface system and use a hard boot that gives much better support, response, and powertransfer to the board or edge. Also these setups are optimal for running higher angles than say 35 degs. Through personal experience and I am sure through the experience of many long long time carvers on here and on the WC for instance higher angles tend to work better for carving. Low angles and soft boots work very well for general freestyle. Of course you can attempt to use one type of equipment for what it is not designed for, but there will be limitations. I really don't care that someone can drag a hip, butt cheek, or knee in softies. They may even be skilled enough to do it on hardpack. But there is no question that soft boots do not carve as well as hardboots. It is just simple physics. Then we get the arguement: "Look at skiers, look at their hardboots and the rails and freestyle." The simple answer here is that they are SKIERS. Lots of similarties and lots of differences. The simple fact that our feet are locked onto one piece of wood compared to having both our feet indepent changes the mechanics of things quite a bit. As boarders we needs different flex patterns in our boards, boots, and bindings. Our technique must be different. With freestyler's finding optimum performance at flat angles and riding parallel with the board this creates very unique issues and needs. Now lets look at skier's. One thing similar about skiers and most high angled riding snowboarders is the simple need for lateral boot and binding support (which hard boots provide very well.) The freestyler's ride at the same angles as the racers and still need lateral support. Although (please correct me if I am wrong) freestyle skiers have boots designed speciallly for new school freestyle that are softer, as I recall, with unique flex patterns. Wasn't there also a shift from soft leather ski boots back in the early1900's to hardboots once the technology became available? Hey, you could probably mount a snowboard soft boot binding to a pair of skis. But we all see the problem instantly:lack of support. So we could modify it and move more hard plastic around the sides of the binding to give more lateral support, and maybe more in the front for more support there. Pretty soon you have a soft boot encased inside a hard plastic shell...wait a minute! That sounds like a hard boot. The simple point here is to use the right tool for the job. Granted, everything is not known about snowboardind and skiing, there has been tons of experience accumulated into finding the perfect carve or jib or jump. It is true a lot of movements are out of media hype and keeping up with the Jones', but patterns tend to emerge for a reason. I just want to end this with the other simple truth about snowboarding (as well as anything else in life), we do it because it is fun or exhilerating or challenging or spiritual. So with that being said, who gives a sh@t...just ride!

brodster_57

March 3rd, 2004, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
What he said. Plus, just look at that softy heelside - doesn't that look uncomfortable and kinda dorky?

Not a softy heelside but a low angle heelside (yes I realize he has softies on.) But this is a matter of taste as well. The low angle heelsides I think look really cool and surfy as well as the low angle toeside. But yes, I love the high anlge look as well. Needless to say a low angle heelside performs nothing like a high angle heelside.

boostertwo

March 3rd, 2004, 09:19 AM

... just look at that softy heelside - doesn't that look uncomfortable and kinda dorky?
http://keyssonline.com/Extension.jpg

I don't think it does. Not at all. It looks especially fun to see a rider rip arcs on softies and then throw a 180 and do the same switch.

jlm27

March 3rd, 2004, 09:27 AM

I ride both plates(65 and 60) and softies(15 and -6). I can carve on my plates. I can carve on my softies. I can drag my hip on heelside and armpit on toeside on my plates. I can drag my butt on heelside and have both knees scrape the snow on toeside on my softies. Occasionally I can drag my armpit in my softies. I can do carve 360's on flats with both hardies and softies.
I've ridden with guys that can do linked toeside eurocarves(toeside eurocarve - air 180 - switch toeside eurocarve) down the hill in softies who had never ridden plates and rode duck stance. I've seen CMC do a carve 360 with a 360 tailpress at the finish. I've seen a guy pull 360's in the pipe on plates. There was an instructor at my home mountain that would jib rails on his old race deck. I've seen instructors give great beginner lessons while they are on plates and the students are in softies. Some of the best advice I recieved about hardbooting came from a trainer who rode softies and never set foot on plates. Some of the best advice I've gotten about carving in softies has come from hardbooters. Some of the worst advice I've ever gotten about carving in softies came from fellow softies. I've met people who swear by using hardboots for freeriding and back country. I'm met people who swear by using softies for freeriding and back country. There is a girl at my home mountain who teaches and rides pigeon toed(front foot at -12 back at 3) and every now and then she gets her board up on edge and rails it(we're working on making it happen more consistently).
The point I'm trying to make is that it's not the equipment or stance or binding angle that makes the turn(or spin or advice), but rather the person attached to. Jack and CMC swear by hardies, Doug and Vin swear by softies. I like 'em both. I say try it all until you find the setup that gets your grin stretched from ear to ear and then stick with it. Freestyle, Freeride, Freecarve, the main thing is that they are all Free(well minus equipment and lift access costs...oh and lunch...and gas, tolls...and don't forget that expensive piece of humble pie for when the snow grabs your edge because it wants to say "hi!" Ok, so maybe it should be expensivestyle, expensiveride, and expensivecarve).
James
PS - The only places where softies are definately an advantage is in the park, the only place where hardies are an advantage is on a course.

Neil Gendzwill

March 3rd, 2004, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by boostertwo

I don't think it does. Not at all. It looks especially fun to see a rider rip arcs on softies and then throw a 180 and do the same switch.
Well, the one you posted looks good - like brodster said, it's not really the equipment but the low angles that make it look bad. To me being completely sideways to your board and assuming that constipated squat required to set a good edge looks uncomfortable and not very fluid. I'm a big fan of medium angles (30-50 degrees) for all-mountain riding. I think most people would do a lot better with either a stiff soft boot or a soft hard boot, higher angles, narrower waist and a little more length than they're on right now. This is assuming you want to ride the mountain, not artificial obstacles.

sic t 2

March 3rd, 2004, 10:39 AM

Soft boot carving has little in common with the hunkered down, squared shoulder, bomber style. You stand tall in soft boots and keep your shoulders more in line with the edge. You do fluid rotations entries to begin the carve. In fact I ride my soft boots just like the guys at ExtremeCarving.com ride their hard boots. Difference being that I can't approach their angles of inclinition but it is exactly how I ride. Kudos to the push-pull style too. Another happy marriage with soft boot riding.

When I ride my hard boots and carving board I use the bomber style of riding (hunkered down for attack). Just like TonyZ taught me at Okemo ! Its works well and its a blast. I don't like the extreme carving position on hard boots that much. Its "ok" but I'm not a big fan of it.

But please stop talking about that toilet seat type of riding while referring to soft boot healsides. Its so ugly and and a misuse of soft boot equipment as far as I'm concerned.

Sic t 2

brodster_57

March 3rd, 2004, 11:14 AM

Thats a pretty cool softboot heelside carve picture. However I have to ask what binding angles the rider in that pic is using. If they are relatively low (like below 30 deg.) it looks like their is too much twisting at the torso and too much rear knee tuck. I found that doing this is less efficient than relaxing into your stance and doing the constipated squat. Twisting and tucking the rear knee caused me too much chatter on the hardpack and bumpy snow. I was not aware I tucked that back knee until I saw it on video, I found that keeping the body properly aligned gave me way more control over the entire length of the edge as well. Unfortunately I see no solution to the constipated squat. It is the reality of low angled stances.

As far as rider's needing to find the right equipment and that soft boots may be the answer for some with carving, this may be true, but again is very circumstantial. There is no avoiding the laws of nature and physics. As far as I am concerned it looks like Dad was right when he used to yell at me for hammering in a nail with the handle of a screw driver. I find it kind of similar to those people using saran wrap or plastic bags for condoms. It works, it may work well, and some people may have even mastered the art. But the question is not whether it is right or wrong, but whether it is efficient or inefficient?

Neil Gendzwill

March 3rd, 2004, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by sic t 2
Soft boot carving has little in common with the hunkered down, squared shoulder, bomber style. You stand tall in soft boots and keep your shoulders more in line with the edge.

When I see people standing tall in softboots, they're skidding. The only ones I see railing are squatting. Perhaps you're the exception.

lonerider

March 3rd, 2004, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by Jack Michaud
This metaphor is totally backwards. Freeride/style decks and softies are the SUV's, carving decks and hardboots are the sedans. No, sportscars. No, motorcycles!!

Hmmm... good point. How about this. Freestyle is the SUV. Hardboot is the sportscar, motorcycle. And an all-mountian freeride is the sedan? My point being that just like how many people don't like throwing their bodies 20 feet in the air, they also don't like screaming down the mountain at 50+ mph - even the best carvers can and will lose control at those highspeeds and get hurt like freestylers.

Most people like to skid around and enjoy "nature" and the "view" etc... now personally I don't agree with this viewpoint (since I actually like doing both to a degree), but it's not about what I "think" people should like and then go about beating them on the heads to convert them to my view of the world... it's about what they actually "do like."

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
When I see people standing tall in softboots, they're skidding. The only ones I see railing are squatting. Perhaps you're the exception.

Well, that may be because most people in softboot skid. I used to squat like a madman, to the point that I was actually sitting on my boot cuffs. Now I find that I can carve while squatting (like in the pipe) or have a lazy surfer carve standing straight up.

Note that the standing up carve isn't a deep carve, but I think it still meets the definition as my trail is pencil thin. When I want to do a heavy carve I tend to bend my knees a bit more, but I'm now working on not excessively bending them.

Brodster - your post has some very good points and insight... but could you format it a little to make it more readible? Serious, I had to force myself to read that monolithic block of text and was rewarded with some great insights... however I think most people just skipped your post.

About your rifle/pistol analogy though. I agree that a rifle is far better for shooting things a lot range, but you omitted the fact that in addition to being more convenient to carry (what good is a rifle if you don't have it when you need it), a pistol is far better at for shooting multiple targets at short range (rifle takes longer to reload and is awkward to aim at close range). Perhaps you meant in terms of hunting, whereas I am hypothesizing about the usefulness in armed combat, which I happily have never experienced first hand and hope none of us will ever have to. Just thought I'd add that to the discussion.

Jack Michaud

March 3rd, 2004, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by lonerider
Hmmm... good point. How about this. Freestyle is the SUV. Hardboot is the sportscar, motorcycle. And an all-mountian freeride is the sedan?

I'd say freestyle boards and all-mtn freeride are the SUV, boardercross are the sedan, all-mtn carvers are the sportscar (WRX?), freecarves are the supersport bikes (600s), raceboards are the superbikes (1000's)!!

brodster_57

March 3rd, 2004, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by lonerider
Brodster - your post has some very good points and insight... but could you format it a little to make it more readible? Serious, I had to force myself to read that monolithic block of text and was rewarded with some great insights... however I think most people just skipped your post.

About your rifle/pistol analogy though. I agree that a rifle is far better for shooting things a lot range, but you omitted the fact that in addition to being more convenient to carry (what good is a rifle if you don't have it when you need it), a pistol is far better at for shooting multiple targets at short range (rifle takes longer to reload and is awkward to aim at close range). Perhaps you meant in terms of hunting, whereas I am hypothesizing about the usefulness in armed combat, which I happily have never experienced first hand and hope none of us will ever have to. Just thought I'd add that to the discussion.

Haha , yeah I tend to write internet messages in monolithic blocks. I get so in to it I forget what it will look like when I post it. But yeah with the analogy that is my point exactly. Both have advantages and disadvantages. The handgun sounds more like a freestyle board and a rifle sounds more like a race board.

Tim Kienitz

March 3rd, 2004, 01:56 PM

Doug M,
Yes, carving hard with soft boots or hardboots is a matter preference. I would like to add that I am sad to lose some of our better carvers to the softboot world. When I first started snowboarding it was those hardbooters that ripped beautiful and graceful laid out carves that drew me to hardbooting. As it is now, there are not many hardbooters out there and so when our best hardboot carvers start carving well with and promoting softboots, it seems that less and less may be drawn to hardbooting. We might see this pattern bring about the final death of the art of hardbooting. I hope not and so I will continue to be a loyal hardbooter until I master the art or when the number of hardbooters is equal to the number of softbooters... neither of which will probably be in my lifetime.
Tim

lonerider

March 3rd, 2004, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by Jack Michaud
I'd say freestyle boards and all-mtn freeride are the SUV, boardercross are the sedan, all-mtn carvers are the sportscar (WRX?), freecarves are the supersport bikes (600s), raceboards are the superbikes (1000's)!!

Uh.... that's stretching the analogy a bit beyond my knowledge, but let's run with it anyways :) Sure an all-mtn carvers could be a WRX, but that's an offroad rally car, is it not? A sport car would be like a Porsche or BMW 3-series, right?

Anyway, I think you are unintentionally illustrating my point about how hardboots may not be for mainstream people. I mean how many people ride/race motocycles? I seriously doubt most people know anything about motorcycle. I've watch my friend race SuperMoto (http://www.dotphoto.com/go.asp?l=ChangArvin&AID=1317929) and I still barely know what you are talking about when you say "supersport" and "super" etc.

In the same way that motorcycles aren't for most people, I don't see freecarve and race boards being for mainsteam snowboarders. It's a niche area.

sic t 2

March 3rd, 2004, 03:22 PM

Your friend rode the "sport moto" class in SuperMoto. That means 21 inch front wheel and a stock front rotor. Good for him.

I "carved away" from this crowd (http://www.mscmotocross.com/supermotard_weekend/supermotard_holeshot.jpg)

my board, its got a 11mm sidecut (http://www.mscmotocross.com/supermotard_weekend/glenktm2.jpg)

But who knows anything about bikes?

Back to the thread: Many soft booters don't know enough to increase the angle of their highbacks. Nor do they know that the top strap can be relocated higher on the ankle. That has a LOT to do with good soft boot carving.

Sic t 2 (#8x)

lonerider

March 3rd, 2004, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by sic t 2
Your friend rode the "sport moto" class in SuperMoto. That means 21 inch front wheel and a stock front rotor. Good for him.

I "carved away" from this crowd (http://www.mscmotocross.com/supermotard_weekend/supermotard_holeshot.jpg)

my board, its got a 11mm sidecut (http://www.mscmotocross.com/supermotard_weekend/glenktm2.jpg)

But who knows anything about bikes?

Back to the thread: Many soft booters don't know enough to increase the angle of their highbacks. Nor do they know that the top strap can be relocated higher on the ankle. That has a LOT to do with good soft boot carving.

Sic t 2 (#8x)

I see. Yea, he just started racing last year... I think he just got a xr100, which is small, but not quite as tiny as the xr50 which look like kid/toy bikes?

Interestingly, he hasn't been interested in trying an alpine setup at all, despite riding with me and my alpine setup. He says while it looks like I'm having fun, it just isn't for him. He is a bit of a jibber, though he carves pretty well for someone who rides with a 15/-15 old school duck stance - carves riding switch as well (lazy wide arcs obviously).

Yea, I've rotated my highbacks (they have wings) and added almost all the forward lean and moved the upper strap as high as it will go. I just started using a power strap around my boots to help stiffen it and make it more responsive, seems to work decently, not going to go out and drill it into my binding as a 3rd strap though.

Bordy

March 3rd, 2004, 04:49 PM

I carve on Hard,
I carve on Med,
I carve on soft,
I carve on skis,
I carve on ski boards,
I carve on teleboard,
I carve on tele skis,
I carve on skwal,
I carve on sit ski,
I carve on Turkey.

I know what works best for carving,

Just because you feel one is better does not mean It is.

I like turkey more then skiing It taste better, and that is the taste I am looking for.

Just because I like it better, I would not say It carves up just as good as some skiis.

Any thing with the right shape can be carved.

Every boot has its day. Iciee Crap is not the best day to pull out the softys to rail CARVED turns!

Would You ride your softys on a Iciee day while all of your Hard Boot friends are waiting for you to catch up?

If you do however not ride enough or train enough in the off season and your legs get a little tired from railing the hard boots then soft boots are o-kay for the rest of the day. Just think of them like training wheels. Only for Hurt little legs instead of snowboarders legs. :eek:

D-Sub

March 3rd, 2004, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by Baka Dasai
Love that picture of the heelside carve in softies. It reminded me of something.

Here it is. Compare and contrast:

<img src="http://www.keyssonline.com/2new-carve.jpg">

<img src="http://64.78.63.45/live/billabong/mdka03/photos/aiwaterL.jpg">

Anyway, as for the original subject of the thread, I'm sure there are some people who can carve as hard in softies as in hard boots. I'm not one of them, and it doesn't seem like many people here are either. But carving is carving - it's all good, even the skiers.

But I like the comment that "nothing pisses off hardbooters more than a guy on softies outcarving them". That happened to me one day last season, and it did piss me off - I was humbled.

<h2><bold>AWESOME!</bold></h2>

gotta say Im a little disheartened with the **** talking. reminds me of when I lived in steamboat and some ******* "jibber" wanted to FIGHT ME because I was that "eurocarver fag" he always saw on the hill.

and man..if I could carve like that on my heels in my soft boots...wow.

time to learn some technique methinks

Vin Quenneville

March 4th, 2004, 06:21 AM

I've been watching this post for the last few days and wasn't going to hop in. but I guess I will..

As long as you aren't racing.. just talking freecarving... if you know the proper techniques on carving, it doesn't matter what you ride. I've been carving on softies for years now... I haven't ridden plates for 5 years now... NO NEED!!!

Stop all this stupid debating and spend your time on the hill having fun... Carving, Jibbing, Hucking or what ever brings a smile to your faces...

Vin

P.S. The great Gilmour looks just like I do on Softies...

ncermak

March 4th, 2004, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by Ken D
Hi...

It's me, ken.

I like beer.
Does anyone else like beer?

ken

I too like beer. But I also like Liquor. In fact wine is good too. I got drunk on wine coolers once (which is about the same a carving on a snowdeck)

brodster_57

March 4th, 2004, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by Vin Quenneville
I've been watching this post for the last few days and wasn't going to hop in. but I guess I will..

As long as you aren't racing.. just talking freecarving... if you know the proper techniques on carving, it doesn't matter what you ride. I've been carving on softies for years now... I haven't ridden plates for 5 years now... NO NEED!!!

Stop all this stupid debating and spend your time on the hill having fun... Carving, Jibbing, Hucking or what ever brings a smile to your faces...

Vin

P.S. The great Gilmour looks just like I do on Softies...

I remember reading about you on here years ago. And I agree if there is no need (for you) why bother. I mean obviously on the race course every fraction of a second counts. So in your opinion though why would a racer not want to use soft boots and such? I also read back in the day that you rode 45 deg angles on your board? Have you had to mofidy in any cants or heellifters? I remember for a day I rode with 45 deg angles and noticed how much it strengthened up my heelsides. But it felt so sloppy. And my toesides were way sloppy. Maybe I didn't give it a chance, but it just didn't feel right. Also what is you stance width. Thanks.

Vin Quenneville

March 4th, 2004, 02:27 PM

I used to ride 45, 33 with a 20in stance... I rode those angles more due to boot out than anything else... I now ride with Palmer plate so I'm down to 21, 12 and a 21" stance...

Have fun!

Vin

J Randy

March 4th, 2004, 02:31 PM

Guy’s, I don’t know if you just have to much time on your hands or what, but it is never the set up, it’s the rider that rips. Hard boots, soft boots – whatever, a rider that can carve can carve!

Maciek

March 4th, 2004, 02:40 PM

Okay. It's time to re-post my old picture from Stratton when I was just starting carving and it was on freeride A-deck with soft boots K2-Yeti in Clicker stepins. Here you go:

<IMG src="http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze44bga/SoftBoard3a.jpg">

Questions about stance?

Angles: 35/15
Width: 22"

CarvCanada

March 4th, 2004, 03:50 PM

i ride with a 23inch stance to counteract the multi radii and soft nose folds

i figure that since the middle radius is sometimes 1.5 meters tighter than the outsides in most freestyles, to get a clean arc under compression, keep the pressure near the ends!

tell me if i'm an idiot, but i ripped on softies!

NateW

March 4th, 2004, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by boostertwo It looks especially fun to see a rider rip arcs on softies and then throw a 180 and do the same switch. [/B]

And even more fun to do the same thing in hard boots... :)

ncermak

March 5th, 2004, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by bola

A Carve is a carve is a carve regardless of equipment. Just ask Sean! he makes freestyle boards as well as carving/race boards. Same goes for Chris. Jeff has done the same in the binding arena and I hope Fin will follow shortly given the success of the Bishop.

My suggestion to the diehard hardbooters is that you direct your efforts at converting skiers, we call them crossovers, to snowboarding. Stop dividing the house - UNITE.

Can I hear an AMEN!!!

right on brother Bola!

Bordy

March 6th, 2004, 07:12 AM

It Never about the gear at the fun level, Its just about the turn(or Carve) no matter what the media!

I think it was De La Sol who said it Best!

"Don't Matter Just Don't Bite It"

Tom H.

March 6th, 2004, 07:43 AM

This post is too funny; I just had to jump in.

I too am a student of the Vin Q. school of soft-set-up carving (although it's been about a season and a half since we've ridden together).

Now a days I spend much more time on my soft-set-up. I have it dialed in, and can carve just as low as my hard-set-up. The difference to me is speed. With hard boots I can make the same turn as soft boots but only faster. The advantage to the soft boots (which actually aren't all that "soft") is versatility. In one run I can bash bumps, search for pow in the woods, and lay out some turns on the groomers. You never know what a full day on the hill will have in store; I like being ready for all of it without having to switch out gear.

The biggest disadvantage I see, and what I miss about being in hard boots more often is the instant bond with other hard booters. There aren't many out there, but in those rare instances when I see a fellow hard booter in line, all they see is another jibber. Until they see me ride, then we hook up and take runs together.

The point: Carvers come in all shapes and sizes. Mine just happens to be a 174 Fastback.

Tom H.

NateW

March 6th, 2004, 07:13 PM

The advantage to the soft boots (which actually aren't all that "soft") is versatility. In one run I can bash bumps, search for pow in the woods, and lay out some turns on the groomers.

That's funny... I ride hard boots for the exact same reason. :)

John Gilmour

March 6th, 2004, 07:31 PM

Real Dalv

March 6th, 2004, 07:57 PM

<center>http://images4.fotki.com/v41/photos/5/53745/233590/oldman1-vi.gif</center>

2010

March 6th, 2004, 10:25 PM

I quit riding hard boots a few years ago, not because I mastered them, but because they mastered me. After never skiing, and surfing for 20+ years, I discovered snowboarding in the early 90's (late I know, but there is nothing wrong with Kauai and Oahu every winter before then).

Anyway, much to my ultimate chagrin, so did my longtime friend___, who proceeded to school me in carving about 10 years ago. I loved the bottom turn and off-the-lip aspect of carving and snowboarding, but never got the whole "I can rip better than you" part of it. Until I tried hard boots in Aspen in 1994. Perfect runs, no crowds, "hero" snow (like I cared or still care about carving on ice), and @#%^&* I could rip a toeside like a heavy bottom turn in LJ or Sunset Beach, but for the love of pete, I hated the heelside because that was a wash-out. Maybe it was the 15 years of switch foot (yeah, I am so bitchen), but I hated the heelside turn, having never skiied, and surfed so long like Jeff Hakman or Michael Peterson (well as i liked to think on the cutback).

Anyway, flash forward to the frickin hard boots that I hated (mostly because I could not go heelside strongly), even though I was trying to sell alpine boards and the like to the small carving brotherhood. Lo and behold, I mounted Clickers at 48/35, rode the powder at speed, the trees and the gaps, the cliff drops, and the motherfrickin corduroy laying it down and over. It clicked and I have never looked back.

Point of this (less than) diatribe, hard booters can carve better than soft booters any day. But like some who have posted above, even though all you bitchen hardbooters can do anything I can (but better), there is nothing better than the following (which I lived last Sat--Tue in the Sierras): Fast, laid-out turns in soft boots because the Clicker set-up offers such a positive heel/toe response (not unlike the TD's or other hard boot apparati), smooth sailing in the 2 feet of powder in the trees 75 yards from the "killer" jumps and whatnot that the kids are all over, and the satisfaction of knowing that while I am an acomplished switchfoot in surfing, my heelside (backside) turn with my Clickers feels so good, so natural, and so frickin surfing-like, that I quit going switchfoot surfing about 8 years ago, and love to bash the lip and carve down into a dynamic face/pit that the kids 20 years my junior are stoked. Not AI, but rail turned, weight forward, and looking to the stars.

In other words, stop being so bitchen (like me), and enjoy ANYTIME you put it on edge..that is what carving is all about.

Hasta La Vista....Cuando No Se.

NateW

March 6th, 2004, 10:51 PM

What boards are you softbooters carving on?

RaceCarver

March 7th, 2004, 01:15 AM

Why does it seem like every Spring this stupid hard vs. soft boot thing surfaces?

I find it amazing that at the exact time of year that Bomber,Catek,Coiler,Donek, etc report yet another good season, this same post seems to appear.

The clowns at Burton Inc. must be trolling overtime since the company isn't showing a profit.

What's the matter Burton, not as much money in the pimple faced "youth" crowd as you thought?

John Gilmour

March 7th, 2004, 08:38 AM

Vin will set you up with a softboot set up that will rail- if you are willing to exaggerate all the things you know about hard boots. You have to ride lower, twist more and throw yourself more into the turns.

It really isn't a bad exercise to do if you want to improve your agressiveness which you can then transfer to your hard boots.

Without allt eh extra leverage- you have to have more exact body positioning to trench in softies on hard snow.

Does the know you are on hard boots or soft boots? No. IF you position your body correctly and hold it in the correct position you can trench pretty deep in soft boots.

Believe it or not I think it takes more time to dial in your high performance soft gear than hard boot gear...but like anything, once it's done, it's done.

So when do I ride soft boots? When I want to ride a little slower with friends. When the snow is too soift for hard booots,

when it's raining, when there is pow.

Todays highend two strap soft binding has soo much "push back" on its median strap that it almost behaves like a stiff plastic tongue on a hard boot- and of course the highbacks now are nearly as stiff as some softer hardboots. You can find boardercross decks that are stiffer than freecarve decks.

Todays soft step in bindings can offer so much stiffness that the need to go over to hardboots for people with small feet just isn't there.

I'd say Vin's set up is a rally car with nitrous. The rest of the carvers out there are looking for the f1 experience.

Personally I find rally car racing (particularly winter rally) just as much fun to watch as f1. It all gets hairball so fast.

Bordy brings up the interesting topic of carving on a teleboard. I thought teleboards were some wacked out missing link- like the duck billed platypus- until I tried one. I am very surprised that we don't have more carvers with teleboards that might just ride the telboard if it dumps 5 inches over the course of the day.

I mean...some lift tickets are $70 you may as well get your fun factor as hgih as possible by riding the gear that can give you the most stoke available for the given snow conditions.

The teleboard is a almost like an aquatic car with adjustable suspension on the fly.

Whatever you ride....its just another way to bust your ass while having a great time.

Would I ever give up my carving deck on a prefect chalk carving day for a teleboard- not a chance? No way. But would I run to my car to swap out my carving deck if it starts dumping- sure. Same thing goes if the mountin is overcrowed and the snow gets trashed- teleboard to the rescue, better that than scaping in softies. Huge dump hit last night- 14 inches of fresh- you know a big all moutain softie deck with great bindings and good soft boots is the call. Better than waiting in a ski house for 2 days for the groomers to flatten a track for you.

Having a variety of gear just lets you ignore the weather channel and make plans and stick with them. The only thing that changes is whats under your feet.
________
MEDICAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES (http://dispensaries.org/)

Jon G.

March 7th, 2004, 01:10 PM

I wouldn't like going to the car and changing boots! Waste of time, if you ask me. But it seems like I am in the minority here- I started riding hard boots mostly for the powder/backcountry.

(I think I have made this post before-- Conspiracy or not, Racecarver may be right!)

I use a regular, wide-but-not-for-my-giant-feet freeride Arbor 167 for 90% of my days on snow. I love railing carves with it, when the best snow is on the groomers. Here in the Northwest, that isn't often enough to bother with a special deck that wouln't work in the trees, or for the backcountry, where the snow is better more often.

I decided to switch to hardboots because they stopped making three strap bindings just as I arrived in the Northwest from the flat Midwest. I was riding with really good skiers, and learning big mountain skills, and getting really tired of tightening down laces, then three sets of ratchets- you all know the dance. Different flex, responsiveness every time-- never again!

I started reading, and asking around, and decided pretty quickly that I was never going to see a set of real snowboard hardboots in a store, and I work at a store that sells Alpine touring/Randonee boots. I found some older model Dynafits that fit, cheap because they were old and too soft for real skiing and bought them. Bindings were harder- plates are a rare sight in Washington. I looked on the internet, decided Cateks were a better choice with the Randonee boots because of forward lean, and paid retail for the first time in five years. I could never go back.

We get a lot of snow here, and wind comes with it a lot. I have enough responsiveness to rail it through on the groomed parts, or the flats, and when I get where the snow has blown I have no problem whipping a few orgasma-tron powder turns- and if an ice patch comes up, I am all set. I can hike in icy bootpacks with a heavy load in my pack, no problem. I use the same boots with my splitboard. I can walk around a snowy campsite in my liners, with their rubber sole made for the purpose. In trees, or powder, I leave the top (of 3) buckle hardly attached, and my ankles can move around the full range of motion left after ~15 years of crappy soft bindings. (I know they are better now, but my first bindings were nylon webbing straps with fastex buckles- painful on the ice!)

I can see using a different board if you are going to be on groomers going fast all day, but I would never bother to switch out boots or bindings-I need all that stuff to stay the same, so I never have to adjust my self-taught lazy-ass style. I like to get out of the car and into the snow, outside as soon as possible for as long as possible. I take my lunch in my backpack and sit in the trees if snowing, or somewhere with a view if it is nice.

Ultimately, though, I don't care what any of you ride on, so long as you are having fun. I ride with skiiers and softbooters 100% of the time, and when they (rarely) get so bored they go into the park I follow and ride the mellow, underused groomer next to it. The slower skiiers and riders are all scared of the park, so the groomer next door is almost always all mine, all day. I have dipped in and fooled around on the p-tex covered rails, for a laugh, and now I find myself tempted to jib snow covered trees when I am off-piste.

But go back to fidding with laces? Never! I have started to call my soft-riding buddies "lacebooters" as they are fiddling at the top of a hike- All the skiiers and I are ready to go, me with the exact same boot/board interface tightness/comfort as the last time I clipped in. Lace-booter sounds kind of derogatory and emphasizes (what I see as) a weakness. But it is all in fun, the key word.

John Gilmour

March 8th, 2004, 01:16 PM

are those the dynafit tour lite extremes? About 3 lbs each- lighter than most soft boots.
________
Clear Trichomes (http://trichomes.org)

Jon G.

March 9th, 2004, 06:20 AM

Yes, they are the Dynafit tourlight "extremes" (the blue ones from about three years ago) with a tongue from an even softer older model. And a bit of bootfitting to get my frankenfeet comfy...

They are getting beat up, and I wish I could get boots made for snowboarding that were plastic with buckles but with a vibram sole, cushy walk mode, etc. I am sure me and the other eight people like me would pay good money for them.

Doug M

March 9th, 2004, 06:03 PM

Ride Yukon 169

Doug M

boostertwo

March 9th, 2004, 06:31 PM

Soft boots or hard, skilled riders can rip arcs.

http://keyssonline.com/2Jeff-Carved.jpg

Binding hangover and full-tilt boot-out is the challenge for bigfoot riders like me.

Skully

March 10th, 2004, 06:15 PM

So what are your suggestions for good softie setups for carving?

Still the Salomon boots (F-boot and malamutes?) and the salomon binders?

What about boards? Volkl? Tanker?...

ALso, someone mentioned something about hating laces (lacebooters.) There are lots of options out ther in softboots that do not involve tying laces anymore - the salomon's are a good example, the quick-lace system, or whatever you call it. Pull on the handle, it locks and you're good to go, no tying involved, you can tighten them as tight as you want, or leave them as loose as you want. Vans has licensed the boa system also, so there's a lot of options there too, no laces to tie.

willywhit

November 29th, 2005, 11:59 AM

I've been watching this post for the last few days and wasn't going to hop in. but I guess I will..

As long as you aren't racing.. just talking freecarving... if you know the proper techniques on carving, it doesn't matter what you ride. I've been carving on softies for years now... I haven't ridden plates for 5 years now... NO NEED!!!

Stop all this stupid debating and spend your time on the hill having fun... Carving, Jibbing, Hucking or what ever brings a smile to your faces...

P.S. The great Gilmour looks just like I do on Softies...
I like beer.
Does anyone else like beer?
I carve on Hard,
I carve on Med,
I carve on soft,
I carve on skis,
I carve on ski boards,
I carve on teleboard,
I carve on tele skis,
I carve on skwal,
I carve on sit ski,
I carve on Turkey.

ike

November 29th, 2005, 01:44 PM

3 cheers for softboot carvers!!!:biggthump

*actually the only reason im getting into soft boot carving is due to $$$

timinor

November 29th, 2005, 02:05 PM

If you go to the USASA Nationals, you'll see lots of kids on soft boots carving up a storm in the GS and SL events. I saw an 18 yr old kid on his soft setup and baggy clothes stay turn for turn in the Parallel format against his apponent who was on hard boots, a racing board and wearing a GS suit. The kid could carve...he ripped.

ike

November 29th, 2005, 02:34 PM

i didnt know there was enogh kid carvers to even have a contest

kathy brower

January 8th, 2007, 01:47 PM

http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts/prsm.dll?eventorder?photo=Y87F0HYT000028&start=0&album=0&adjust=-1&d=0&pphoto=Y87F0HYT000027

Above is link to me riding at Killington last Thursday

Rode an even softer board today in the rain at Sunapee - snow was awesome although disappearing rapidly - had to quit when I got soaked

Softies work best for me when the snow is slushy and lumpy - although I agree not the same G's you can pull on a firm cord day in hard boots

jtslalom

January 8th, 2007, 02:15 PM

DOUG M,
You're a good man. I sold all my hard equipment in the beginning of this year and now am riding a Ride Timeless 168 on soft Burton bindings. I made the switch last year after hard riding since 1992. I always believed that if you can carve well, you can do it on ANYTHING, including soft boots. I don't think it can be done as well on soft boots but almost as well. Racing is out of the question but just carving is fine. Come up to mountain Creek in Vernon some time and post on the NY, NJ, PA forum (provided we ever get some cold weather to make snow) and we'll make some good turns together on soft boots. I am happy that some people can enjoy carving deep turns on soft boots besides me, especially ones that are relatively local.

Dr D

January 8th, 2007, 05:27 PM

I carve extremely well on my "soft setup". ITs not really a soft set up though. ITs an alpine setup with soft boots and bindings. I ride an all mountain designed board with a forward stance. IE my toes are at the edge of the board and my heels are the same. This seems to be more critical than with hard boots as far as edge control goes. so rather than setting a specific angle I would fit my stance to the board. ITs around 45/40ish. I also ride a cant plate on the rear foot on occassion with mixed results.

The point is that there are possibilities out there that need to be explored. I know that there are boots out there that won't kill my feet after 4 hrs but I haven't found them yet. Until they make boots for those of us that have really extreme width on our dogs, I will be half daying it 1/2 hard and 1/2 soft.

Bonus is the new set of legs that comes from using completely different muscles to accomplish the task. AS long as the wax wears off the lateral 3/4 of an inch of the board and not the middle I am happy.:1luvu:

Rob Stevens

January 9th, 2007, 01:49 PM

I posted a thread awhile back, asking if anyone could lay out EC style heelside turns with a ducked stance (mine is 30 and -3).

Kjl sent me the photo of Vin Q in this old thread, but his angles were forward, reducing, or eliminating altogether, his heeldrag.

Can anyone out there do it in a stance like the one I'm describing? I will not rotate the back foot past zero. It's important to me to maintain the duck.

Carving toeside EC is no problem, but that's a whole different matter... If I could get my heelsides down, in the full F/S, F/R stance angles, I could do the body-drag-speed-brake and always carve the groomers, no matter how steep.

Neil Gendzwill

January 9th, 2007, 02:01 PM

It's important to me to maintain the duck.Why is it so important?

Rob Stevens

January 9th, 2007, 02:28 PM

Suspension travel in my legs.
I find I can squat landings much lower, thereby landing bigger drops, with my back foot past 0, into the -'s.
It's like squatting weights... Try pointing your feet in the same direction and squatting. Now, try it with a bit of "splay" (I learned this word from you, Neil). In my case, at least, I can get lower.
I realize I could have splay AND forward angles, but it is much easier to wind up over the tail in a compressed situation with forward angles. I find it easier to stay between the bindings for better pressure control in a duck stance and switch is better, of course.
I just can't EC heelside...
I should probably try hardboots and plates, with the same angles I run in softs, on my freeride board. This way, I could get rid of the overhang enough to see if it's possible in the sideways stance I have.
Once again, I'm sure there is a setup that won't have overhang at these angles, I'm just wondering if anyone out there has already mastered the turn?

Neil Gendzwill

January 9th, 2007, 03:51 PM

I see, the squat analogy helps. However landing the big drops is not so important for me. I've never been too comfy in the air. You OTOH probably have to teach this stuff.

I speculate that getting that EC heelside on a duck softie stance is going to be tough - even if you get no overhang on the boots, the heel loop might do you in when you're totally laid over. I know the drink-n-drive lever on my Raichles used to hit the snow in soft conditions until I made some stance adjustments.

However if you really want to give it a go, Donek makes the Sasquatch, which is a 28 cm wide freeride that is verging on raceboard stiff. Alternately, I saw a kid at the local hill rocking -30/+30. That would probably do 'er.

Dr D

January 9th, 2007, 04:57 PM

lift plates will buy you a little space but unless the board is a real fatty I think its a tall order. Have you really tried a forward stance with maybe a little wider than usual spread? You are going to have to find a way to get to 0 overhang somehow. the wider stance might buy you some clearance as well by getting you into a wider part of the board. WE WIll want to hear how it goes.:biggthump

kjl

January 9th, 2007, 06:04 PM

I should probably try hardboots and plates, with the same angles I run in softs, on my freeride board. This way, I could get rid of the overhang enough to see if it's possible in the sideways stance I have.

In my opinion, hardboots + flat angles is really awkward because you have no side-side flexibility in your boots, meaning no quick nose->tail weight shifts from the ankle, only big lever weight shifts from the waist.

Once again, I'm sure there is a setup that won't have overhang at these angles, I'm just wondering if anyone out there has already mastered the turn?

I know that you know way more than me about carving (thanks for the heelside help), but it seems to me that low angles make it extremely difficult to carve heelside. Bending the knees puts pressure on the fronts of the boots, which, in a flat stance, drive the toe edge down. The only way I found to put pressure on the back of the boot (heel edge) reasonably in a flat stance is to straight-leg it and bend over at the waist: a very, very ugly position which really sucks ass in anything other than pristine groom.

Neil Gendzwill

January 9th, 2007, 06:39 PM

In my opinion, hardboots + flat angles is really awkward because you have no side-side flexibility in your boots, meaning no quick nose->tail weight shifts from the ankle, only big lever weight shifts from the waist.What are you running for boots? I have a fair old bit of side to side flexibility, but my old 224s are pretty soft as hard boots go.

Pow

January 9th, 2007, 06:49 PM

I can carve very well on my softies and longboard combination, way better than any other softboot rider i see on the mountains, but i can carve so much harder and get so much lower on an alpine setup. Basically i use both now, i ride the alpine until im tired and conditions get sketchy, then i ride the longboard for the rest of the day.

snowboardfast

January 9th, 2007, 06:55 PM

The main reason I stopped riding soft boots is foot pain. In hard boots I am very comfortable all day. Soft boots my feet hurt all the time when I am riding. I rode new year's day in soft boots this year for about 2 hours and the bottom of my feet hurt bad even with custom insoles and a good quality pair of boots. I was riding eaiser and not trying to overdrive the equipment and was able to carve well but my feet hurt too much. I have been riding for 28 years and can ride almost any setup and have fun. I don't know how to overcome this problem- my solution is to ride hard boots. I would agree that you can carve well in soft but you can also ride all mountain in hard boots with the right board. Soft boot riding allows you to use 1 board for everthing and is cheaper equipment wise. I enjoy riding different boards and am lucky enought to afford to have several to ride. I think that The soft stuff available now is very good. I think that part of the reason that people do'nt want to ride hard boots is most hard boot riding that they see is on groomed snow only and not all over the mountain. This gives them the impression that hard boots are only good for one thing. I like to ride all over the place and enjoy riding my Dupraz with hard boots everywhere. I am not putting anyone down- ride what you like to ride and have fun. I enjoy snowboarding with anyone who likes to ride whether they ride plates or not.

Mallard_with_a_Gun

January 9th, 2007, 08:00 PM

I posted a thread awhile back, asking if anyone could lay out EC style heelside turns with a ducked stance (mine is 30 and -3).

Can anyone out there do it in a stance like the one I'm describing? I will not rotate the back foot past zero. It's important to me to maintain the duck.

Dude, revive your old thread, there is too much pointless glurp in this one.

I am working HARD(two 12 hr days last weekend, 10 days so far this season) on this for the simple reason that I have no choice in the matter. I've a left ankle that is mostly hashbrowns and old razor blades, and a right knee with nothing but sand and gravel in it. I HAVE to ride duck foot or not ride at all.

I've found that riding seriously weight forward(front foot) when beginning the heel side turn and transitioning into the dreaded passing a pine cone stance after the nose is good and dug in works passing well, but I skid out alot If I don't cantilever the carving edge perfectly, and I just can't figure what it is that I'm doing differently to the board vs. the toeside. Maybe its the board itself, I simply don't know, I'm seriously considering purchasing a all-mountain carver to see if it helps.

I'm currently using Vans BFB with Drake matrix bindings. The Vans are THE most comfortable thing I've ever worn. In any kind of hard boot after 30 mins on the mountain it feels like someone is injecting boiling acid into my ankle.

I don't pretend to be knowledgable about carving or snowboarding, or much of anything else for that matter, so if any of you feel like bashing me for the way I ride or not knowing the proper terminology or jargon, save your time. I simply don't care.

As far as this thread goes, who gives a good damn what you ride or how you ride it, just as long as you ride. Though I imagine that all of us most likely have at least one thing in common, a skidded turn just flat pisses me off.

philfell

January 9th, 2007, 09:47 PM

Boostertwo,
Why would you sacrifice all mountain and freestyle performance using hardboots? Earlier I gave the example of the freestyle skiers using hardboots to do all their tricks and maneuvers. Some tricks might be harder to do with hardboots, but they are still possible. It just takes more work and talent. The rider that can do everything using hardboots (tricks and carving) would be the better rider because of the degree of difficulty mastered combined with the superior performing equipment.
Will freestyle skiers start using softboots in the future?
Tim

You answered you own question, it takes more work and talent to do the same freestyle stuff in hard boots. Soft boots make riding pow easier and more enjoyable, if hard boots were better for freestyle beleive me Ross Powers would be riding hard boots (trust me he could put hard boots on right now and out ride everyone here, myself included). You shouldn't compare freestyle sking to snowboarding, they are different sports.

To get back to the OP, yeah with todays equipment you can rail some amazing turns in a soft boot set-up. Watch Seth Wescott, Graham Watanabe, or Jayson Hale race SBX. Those guys came from a hardboot background and it shows when they ride softies. But hardboots still out perform softies at carving. These days I spend a fair amount riding on skies, hard boots and soft boots. Skies outperform at high speed and on ice, hard boot rule it for g's and carving hero snow, softies come out on pow days.

bobdea

January 9th, 2007, 10:28 PM

softies have gotten so much better in the last five years not in the sense of whats possible on them but how much easier it is to rail on them without having a overly stiff or restricting softboot setup.

I was carving much stronger on my tanker on a couple of my outing than I have been on my coilers, this is a new thing with me considering I just started to ride softies again. the boards are a little better but softboots and bindings have come a long way in recent years.

kjl

January 10th, 2007, 09:12 AM

What are you running for boots? I have a fair old bit of side to side flexibility, but my old 224s are pretty soft as hard boots go.

423s and now the new 325Ts. I think the softest hard boot would still be too hard for the side-to-side ankle flexibility (nose->tail) that I am used to in soft boots, but that's probably because I started on softboots...

...but I skid out alot If I don't cantilever the carving edge perfectly, and I just can't figure what it is that I'm doing differently to the board vs. the toeside.

It's not you; it's your body. If you stand on a snowboard sideways and bend your knees, the toe edge goes down. Thrust the pelvis forwards a little and you've got more toeside angulation than you could possibly use. Bend your knees and shove your pelvis back like you're sitting on the toilet as far as possible and you have just the bare minimum amount of angulation to hold the heelside edge in, barring any bumps in the snow.

Of course, occasionally you see a softbooter railing carves (some of them probably on this very forum), so it must be possible to do with some magic. It's just that the mechanics of your body are heavily biased towards making the toeside turn easier at flat angles.