What are the pros & cons to a rounded tail...

[Jeffrey Day]

...on an alpine board? I've been carving for about 6 years now and I consider myself, reluctantly, an aggressive, dare I say, expert level carver. I am about to get myself a new, much longer board for me. I am looking at a Prior Metal 187 or a Coiler Pure Race GS 181.

To me, a rounded tail doesn't make sense because you'd lose a bit of effective edge, right? As an example, the Prior Metal 187 has an effective edge of 161cm where as the Coiler Pure Race GS 181 has an effective edge of 163cm. Why would I want a longer board with a shorter effective edge?

Help the un-informed!

[tex1230]

you can't race BX with a square tail...just sayin'

[Jeffrey Day]

Ahh, there's a good point! I wouldn't have thought about that. Not much into racing, although I've thought about racing next year, but probably not BX.

[jnshapiro]

This is a good question. I'm interested in the responses. Also, no interest in racing for me.

[willywhit]

a guy asked me on sunday , at sunday river, what kind of a board is that ? "the fast kind" I replied. Why isn't the tail turned up ? "Because I'm only going one way" I replied. I would've played alpine ambassador but we had just heard about the free burgers for passholders and were afraid it was almost over at 1:15. Bumrush the free burgers. Don't overthink it, Jeff, my Coiler BARELY has a nose.

[Jack Michaud]

In my experience with my Metal 177, the tail makes the biggest impact while not carving, where it really does make the board easier to ride. Mine serves double duty as my all-mtn board.

While carving, it releases a little easier, and is more forgiving on uneven terrain (slush, chop, piles, etc). Does it make me pine for a rounded tail on my other carving boards? No.

Comparing the Metal 187 to that Coiler isn't really apples to apples. The Coiler is also going to have a much shorter nose, which is a different issue altogether. The running length of the Metal Priors is the same as the corresponding WCRs. The Metals are just 2cm longer overall. The benefit of the shape is significant, the penalty of the extra weight is not.

This doesn't apply to you Jeff, but I've taught my father how to carve, my wife how to snowboard (in hardboots from day one), and helped my sister make the transition to hardboots. For all of them, a round tail made a world of difference. My dad started on an FP, my sister on an Alp, and my wife on a Stat. Switching them all to E-decks opened the door to the next level.

ps - no dare needed.

[Mike T]

In addition to everything Jack said, I find that rounded-tailed boards are more well behaved when pumping them for speed from the back seat when carving on a flat section. No more tail catches when I get too far back and don't shift into the next turn properly.

Here in the Pacific NW you get lots of slush and chop and it's definitely less pone to grabby-tail in those conditions.

Right now I have half square tails and half round tails. If round tail is an option on any new board I am going to get it from now on.

[Buell]

Hey Jeff,

Round tails really help with fakie EC! :biggthump

Your are really going big with a 187 Metal. I find my 183 rides slightly smaller than the Donek 175 GS Olympic. That said, I ordered a 187 to go with my 183 for next year.

After riding my Prior Metal with a round tail, I don't expect I will return to square tails.

Take care, Buell

[Jeffrey Day]

Hey Buell,

What are you saying, that I'm getting ahead of myself by wanting to get a 187? You're probably right...I am just a wee little man whose a hack of a carver! :)

[Sinecure]

Rounded tails fall over more easily when you lean them against the wall. :angryfire

Otherwise not much diff. That's a very sweet board. I test rode one during the demo days this year. Very fun, smooth and fast. I want one too.

[Kirk]

One of the main features that made me decide to look at the Prior for my next deck. For all the reasons stated above.

To be honest, I noticed VERY little difference between the 183 and 187 in terms of overall stability at speed with similar turn shape.

[willywhit]

Hey Buell,

What are you saying, that I'm getting ahead of myself by wanting to get a 187? You're probably right...I am just a wee little man whose a hack of a carver! :)
jday, don't sell yourself...short :biggthump
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[Jack Michaud]

Jeff, if you can, go custom with a narrower waist on that 187 for your boot size. Stock is 19.5cm. I'd be very surprised if a 18cm template didn't already exist.

ps - unfortunately Sinecure speaks the truth.

[Fleaman]

The curved tail on my Am and Rc coiler sure have saved my bacon. Especially when you get turned around after hitting a twig or something.

I think the turned up tail expands the usefullness of your board. Unless you are a diehard squaretail lover, I think it should be an option on all boards.

New school boards with wide and turned up tails make sense to me. It makes the tools of our sport more versatile, which in my opinion is why we lost so many members in the late 90's when boards were getting too specific and narrow. The lure of wide, soft boards was too great.

Little do they know Alpine boards are superior in every way. :eplus2:

[bobdea]

...on an alpine board? I've been carving for about 6 years now and I consider myself, reluctantly, an aggressive, dare I say, expert level carver. I am about to get myself a new, much longer board for me. I am looking at a Prior Metal 187 or a Coiler Pure Race GS 181.

To me, a rounded tail doesn't make sense because you'd lose a bit of effective edge, right? As an example, the Prior Metal 187 has an effective edge of 161cm where as the Coiler Pure Race GS 181 has an effective edge of 163cm. Why would I want a longer board with a shorter effective edge?

Help the un-informed!

effective edge is a useless number, running length is what counts
all my recent coilers have had round tails, they ride better switch and are more durable in my experience, no reason not to have one

about getting a narrower WCR, I'd hesitate on that, I've been told most people are going wider with the metal decks from sources other than prior, for more info maybe talk to bordy and a couple others that race or coach they'd know for sure, again, this is just what a couple people have said to me but it seems to be true in that I've seen a few boards with 20cm waists and wider
Unless you have really tiny feet like smaller than a mens 8 I'd not worry about it but if you're a lightweight maybe have it built softer.

[Mike T]

about getting a narrower WCR, I'd hesitate on that, I've been told most people are going wider with the metal decks from sources other than prior, for more info

-snip-

but if you're a lightweight maybe have it built softer.

I've got a new Prior Metal 177 and went with the default 19.5 waist. I'm small-footed - size 25 boots - and it's just fine. It feels just as quick edge to edge as my 18 cm waisted Doneks.

Stiffness wise... I weight 190 and Dean @ Prior pretty much wouldn't sell me one unless it was stiffened. Even so it's still my softest alpine deck. It's still soft enough to get the full-on metal experience but I don't find my carves going terminal the way they did when I tried a stock 183. If you are REALLY light you might want it softened...

[Buell]

I consider myself, reluctantly, an aggressive, dare I say, expert level carver.


I am just a wee little man whose a hack of a carver! :)

So which one is it? :lol: Nice to see you finally owning up to your abilities!

I'm sure the 187 will be just as friendly as my 183. When you bring that thing out west next season, we can have people again asking us "was there a special on that board, why do you both have the same one?" :rolleyes:

Regarding the round tail, I am fully in agreement with Fleaman about it saving my butt when I get spun around.

Buell

[pokkis]

Round tail is way to go with these new boards, release from turn is so smooth plus it is so fun to ride fakie without fear to edge catch :D
What comes to width, my wife rides Pen BJ 721 very happy on her 23 mondo boots. So i would not go more narrow than standard Prior Metal WCR except if some really wants skinny Titanal board :eek:

[Jeffrey Day]

I'm sure the 187 will be just as friendly as my 183. When you bring that thing out west next season, we can have people again asking us "was there a special on that board, why do you both have the same one?" :rolleyes:

Buell

One of my favorite saying when I see people with matching gear is: " Hey, did you get a free bowl of soup with those boards!?!"

And if it matters, I do have key fobs for boots, size 24mp! AND I'm a light-weight rider at 149 pounds nude...so what, about 160 with gear on. I don't think that I'd want to soften up the board at all, but I do like the idea of getting the board narrowed to 18cm.

[sandarapark]

between a rounded tain and a upturned tail?

are they just the same

[willywhit]

Good point about the square tail being less forgiving.Last run monday we were taking pics and I dove into a fast heelside, ended up sliding on my keister doing the sit and spin and the tail dug in HARD....Boink !
I felt the jolt in my ankle and my pelvis. My buddy with the camera said it looked "kinda ugly" and I guess it could've been worse. A rounded,upturned tail probably wouldn't have "stuck" so hard.
Be careful out there ...boys & girls :cool: Noah just emailed me that he's done for the season with bruised ribs. Great snow at KMArt tho, he sez.
I'm really liking the 23 wide board these days,much less margin for.....ohhhhh shizer, hook , over the bars....BAM ! :angryfire

[BlueB]

What's the difference
You bet. Variations are endless:

Square, flat
Square, rounded corners, flat
Square, rounded corners, upturned
Square, tapered corners, flat
Square, tapered corners, upturned
Square, chamfered corners, flat
Square, chmfered corners, upturned.

Then apply all of the variations above to rounded or elliptical tail.

Then apply the split, swallow or fish tail variations to both of the above groups.

Then consider asym variations to all of the above...

:D :D :D

[willywhit]

You bet. Variations are endless:

Square, flat
Square, rounded corners, flat
Square, rounded corners, upturned
Square, tapered corners, flat
Square, tapered corners, upturned
Square, chamfered corners, flat
Square, chmfered corners, upturned.

Then apply all of the variations above to rounded or elliptical tail.

Then apply the split, swallow or fish tail variations to both of the above groups.

Then consider asym variations to all of the above...

:D :D :D
Bubba: Anyway, like I was sayin', shrimp is the fruit of the sea.
You can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, saute it.
Dey's uh,
shrimp-kabobs, shrimp creole, shrimp gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried. There's pineapple shrimp, lemon shrimp, coconut shrimp, pepper shrimp, shrimp soup, shrimp stew, shrimp salad, shrimp and potatoes, shrimp burger, shrimp sandwich. That- that's about it.

Bubba: Have you ever been on a shrimp boat?
Forrest Gump: No, but I've been on a real big boat. :D :D :D

[skategoat]

If I'm coming out of a turn and I'm in the back seat, the square tail gives me a bit more hold and allows me to recover to a balanced position. With the rounded tail on my Prior, I skid out more.

I think effective edge does has some benefit. It's a useless number only if you are riding balanced and centred at all times. I'm not that good.

[Dave ESPI]

I have a flat tail that is both rounded at the edges and slightly upturned on my Airwalk 157. It really does make for a smooth transitioning ride. I've only been on that, and my wide rossignol 163 dirrectional powderboard with the hardboots, and they both are nice with the rear up-turned tail.

[sandarapark]

You bet. Variations are endless:

Square, flat
Square, rounded corners, flat
Square, rounded corners, upturned
Square, tapered corners, flat
Square, tapered corners, upturned
Square, chamfered corners, flat
Square, chmfered corners, upturned.

Then apply all of the variations above to rounded or elliptical tail.

Then apply the split, swallow or fish tail variations to both of the above groups.

Then consider asym variations to all of the above...

:D :D :D


So, which kind of "round tail" is being talkedabout here?

[Kirk]

So, which kind of "round tail" is being talkedabout here?

Uh, see Barry's avatar :confused:







Oh, maybe this one :o

[~tb]

I have ridden both from multiple manufacturers and my preception is that the rounded off tails are slightly smoother in the transition, but if I want to get the board to "pop" comming out of a turn, that the lack of that last bit of edge makes for a soft release with less "pop". . . I personally dont like it, but understand why those whom do . . . do. ( i said doo doo)

If you took a madd 158 and rounded the tail, I dont think people would like it. but take a board that is supposed to be a smooth damp ride (like these metal boards) and the rounded tail is a match.

and for the record. . . effective edge does matter quite a bit.

[sandarapark]

I mean, is it the;

Square, flat
or
Square, rounded corners, flat
or
Square, rounded corners, upturned
or
Square, tapered corners, flat
or
Square, tapered corners, upturned
or
Square, chamfered corners, flat
or
Square, chmfered corners, upturned.

sorry for the misunderstandng

[Kirk]

Well, in the case of my post above, and the product mentioned by the original poster, the tail is rounded and up-turned.

And, based on my experience, what Todd says is true regarding "pop" out of the turn. (I DO know that Todd has some, uh, reservations with regards to the Prior product ;)

I've really enjoyed this feature on this particular deck.

[Fleaman]

I mean, is it the;

Square, flat
or
Square, rounded corners, flat
or
Square, rounded corners, upturned
or
Square, tapered corners, flat
or
Square, tapered corners, upturned
or
Square, chamfered corners, flat
or
Square, chmfered corners, upturned.

sorry for the misunderstandng

I think we are talking about the square with rounded corners and a 2" or less upturn. Not like a freestyle board which is round and turned up.



Bubba: Anyway, like I was sayin', shrimp is the fruit of the sea.

Dude, if you can remember all that by heart, either you are talented or have no life. :biggthump

[bobdea]

effective edge doesn't mean much other than how long the edge is between point A and B which is all good but with different sidecut geometries it becomes something that is less signifigant than say running length

[~tb]

(I DO know that Todd has some, uh, reservations with regards to the Prior product ;)


Im not 100% sure what you mean by this, I have the utmost respect for the prior boards, especially the metals.

when it comes to the effects of different tails shapes, most of the comparisons I have done have not been on the prior product line, but I believe the difference in how the boards behave due to tail design hold true regardless of manufacturer or construction.

edit: PS: whatever benefit may exist . . . is cancelled out for me when the board falls over while leaning up against the wall . . . DOH!

[Chris Houghton]

I'm with TB on this, the only time I notice that my Prior metal has a rounded tail is when I go fakie for whatever reason (planned or not). Oh yeah, and when I try to lean it against the wall. Otherwise it's invisible. If you think the rounded tail gives you less to push on, just move your bindings forward. It's all about effective edge, not tip and tail shape, Shred proved that.

[Mellow Yellow]

It's all about effective edge, not tip and tail shape, Shred proved that.


oooooooooo.... that Shred guy is my hero!

[groovastic]

so you say rounded tail on longer boards just adds unwanted weight and has no benefits even on uneven terrain? :mad:
i say longer boards because i'm thinking of getting a Prior Metal 187 or something similar...

[Mr.E]

I think people are saying it adds negligible weight, and the benefits are MOST noticeable on uneven and rough terrain. I think on hero groom where you want a crisper tail release you might want a square tail.

[Kirk]

so you say rounded tail on longer boards just adds unwanted weight and has no benefits even on uneven terrain?

Who/Where is this information coming from :confused: :confused:




i say longer boards because i'm thinking of getting a Prior Metal 187 or something similar...

Groov, if you can, demo one first. I don't think you'll be dissapointed.

[Kirk]

It's all about effective edge, not tip and tail shape, Shred proved that.

What exactly did Shred proove?

While effective edge is an important component affecting the board's stability at speed, I would say that "It's all about effective edge" is a stretch. What kind of terrain? Snow conditions? Appication (race, freecarve, all-mtn., etc)? Depending on your application, tip & tail profiles are definitely going to be a variable in the equation.

Maybe we need to define what "it's" is ;)

[ursle]

(It's)Just like a ski, it's using that last inch and a half of the ski or board to finish the turn and get rebound into the next one

It's what it's all about

[Kirk]

(It's)Just like a ski, it's using that last inch and a half of the ski or board to finish the turn and get rebound into the next one

It's what it's all about

Huh :confused:

[Mr.E]

Using the tail to hook and boost, or "pop". I like square tails with taper for this reason. I can use the tail to hook, but am not "forced" to.

[Kirk]

Eric, I understand the concept of "pop" (or whatever term you want to use) at the end of a turn and how tail shape/configuration can affect that...as well as other board variables.

I was just a little confused as to how Ursle's response really related to my earlier comment.

Interesting enough, I've ridden a fair share of of square-tail decks (with and without taper) and can say that the rounded-tail Prior had as much or more of this perceived "pop" that we speak of than some of the square tails I've been on. This perception obviously varies from rider to rider.

[yyzcanuck]

I think you'll see most of (if not all) metal boards going to some sort of rounded tail design simply for durability and torsional stiffness. It adds a level of rigidity to the tail that doesn't exist with the traditional square tail. The metal designs are so thin and soft that they almost "need" to have some sort of torsional stiffness added at the tail. Then there's the problem of the rider that likes to stuff the tail of the board into the snow on his way to lunch... OUCH.

[Mr.E]

Eric, I understand the concept of "pop" (or whatever term you want to use) at the end of a turn and how tail shape/configuration can affect that...as well as other board variables.

I was just a little confused as to how Ursle's response really related to my earlier comment.

Interesting enough, I've ridden a fair share of of square-tail decks (with and without taper) and can say that the rounded-tail Prior had as much or more of this perceived "pop" that we speak of than some of the square tails I've been on. This perception obviously varies from rider to rider.

I thik he just replied to the last thread, i didn't assume it was addressing your comments (but?). And I didn't mean "pop" as latent energy release (ala ol' Prior SL's), but actually leaning and and demi-ollieing (as in, the action of popping). Clear as mud? :D

[ursle]

What exactly did Shred proove?

While effective edge is an important component affecting the board's stability at speed, I would say that "It's all about effective edge" is a stretch. What kind of terrain? Snow conditions? Appication (race, freecarve, all-mtn., etc)? Depending on your application, tip & tail profiles are definitely going to be a variable in the equation.

Maybe we need to define what "it's" is ;)

I am at a total loss as to what shred proved, but I am certain of what it is :D

[Dr D]

Using the tail to hook and boost, or "pop". I like square tails with taper for this reason. I can use the tail to hook, but am not "forced" to.

This opens up a whole new can of worms! depending on sidecut geometry you can vary the degree of said HOOK. The identity fans among us love them because their geometry controls the hookability rather than the tail. the standards have a tighter radius in the front so they hook up instantly when you lay them over but the radius relaxes as it goes back allowing you to unhook and pop into the next turn at will. No more getting "stuck" in a turn. this doesn't work well for racers back in the pack since a rutted course doesn't need to hook up so easy and it really needs to hold the turn further through the turn. Johns answer to this was to build some boards backwards so to speak. the geometry reversed allows the racer to hold the turn as long as needed through a rutted out gate. As your standings improve and the need changes you go back to the standard board. So much more to it than just a round sidecut:biggthump

[Dave ESPI]

I've always ridden rounded tails. I tried a friends flat (square) tail last season, and it is a different style of ride and turn finishing onit. If you try to slide through turns with a flat tail, you are getting broke at some point. It is more of a "hop-chop" style turn in which you need to be quick on the edge change. IME, the last foot of a board is a key part to what and how you are riding on. FOr northeast conditions... unless it is really good conditions with fresh snow and groomers with a thick packed base that is soft enough to get a good bite into, I'll always reccommend a rounded tail over a square hands down. Another factor is that riding fakie or switch at anypoint on a flat tail is near impossible, and on crowded slopes, you really need to be able to do that........ even on a carver.:nono:

[bobdea]

have more imaginary pros and cons of a flat tail than there actually are as far as ride differences
I've ridden allot of boards and my reasoning is specific. I have been on boards that are the same board but one has more tail to it and for forward riding the only difference that's worth a damn if you're way in the back seat (where you should not be) or if you're switch but that's obvious. any other differences are really subtle.
with the metal boards I suspect it has more to do with durability than anything else. I'd have to ask a builder though to really speak with authority.
I do have a tail put on all my boards BTW, I just think you guys are way over analyzing this

[tex1230]

I've always ridden rounded tails. I tried a friends flat (square) tail last season, and it is a different style of ride and turn finishing onit. If you try to slide through turns with a flat tail, you are getting broke at some point.
Why would you want to slide a turn anyway? :lol:

[Phil]

I've always ridden rounded tails. I tried a friends flat (square) tail last season, and it is a different style of ride and turn finishing onit. If you try to slide through turns with a flat tail, you are getting broke at some point.

Why would you want to slide a turn anyway? :lol:

Exactly. Dave, I think that yours is a moot point. It has nothing to do with the flat tail, but rather the kind of board that you will find a flat tail on. You could have rounded that tail as much as you want - it would still act the same. Flat tails are on race and alpine boards mostly. These boards are meant to carve. Beyond that, getting stuck in a turn is more the rider than the board.


Another factor is that riding fakie or switch at anypoint on a flat tail is near impossible, and on crowded slopes, you really need to be able to do that........ even on a carver.

Impossible for who?:nono: Don't tell that to the guys that do switch bumps, rails and halfpipe on race boards with flat tails.


I swear allot of you have more imaginary pros and cons of a flat tail than there actually are as far as ride differences .....I just think you guys are way over analyzing this

Thank you Bobdea for being the voice of reason in this discussion.

Stiffness, both longitudinal and torsional, sidecut (including taper, progressive, regressive, etc.) and transition zones are what make a board perform in the ways previously discussed. The square tail is a mental thing unless you are riding switch in deep snow. Even then it can be ridden, it is just a PITA.

[Bordy]

huh??? Really-mmmmm no and I think many of you are just feeling different board caricteristics not tail shape. The effective edge ends and so does the contact with the snow what ever follows the edge doesn't matter. To say you think you get more pop out of a square tail is crazy perhaps the board with more pop had a stiffer tail also?????.
Sure we could arguee the physics but with out including the varable or each board who cares

Round tail let you ride backward better (if you are into that, I have heard of people doing it)
They provide torsional strength (with the upturn)
They allow you to feel like a jibber
they just plain look cool

The first tail ended up on a prior to help racers handle a spin out in the world of duel where you could still win after a fall, Some thing that never mattered in 2 run GS.

[Kirk]

I think many of you are just feeling different board caricteristics not tail shape.

To say you think you get more pop out of a square tail is crazy perhaps the board with more pop had a stiffer tail also?????.

Sure we could arguee the physics but with out including the varable or each board who cares

Yep. Makes sense.

[Dave ESPI]

Splitting hairs here with what I said.

:lol:

Note I said CROWDED slopes. It is rare that I EVER get to just open up and rip trails and lay full on carves with any board and utelize the full potential with what I have under my feet because slower traffic is always ahead, and tehy have the right of way, and often they are not always "in control" ,so we have to make adjustments and "slide a turn" as carving past someone is not just insane, its potentialy dangerous to everyone let alone the speed at which you are moving at............ a flat tail IMHO just is not as versatile a tool on many mountains.

NEAR impossible..... Not saying that people CAN'T ride switch and what not on hard tails, but just that the potential for injury and other issues are higher, and not for the faint of heart.

Everyones skill level is different, and so is their stupidity... if they want to do that stuff in hardboots, go for it ! more awesome power points for that guy ! :eplus2:

[RaceBoarder7]

As far as the width goes it all depends on what your riding the board for. Most competitive Racers (World Cup-Nor Am) type stuff are going wider on there boards regardless of foot size or height/weight so they can run lower angles and more importantly incorporate some plates(Hangl-Vist-S-Flex). The hangl-Plate System is rather wide and bulky... In regard To Only width a standard Kessler is 20.5 CM Waist Width Or More. Riders are using Angles in the 45-50 Degree Range. So if you wanna run Plates then yes I agree with Bobdea, I would question anything smaller than 19.5. Round Tail, Square Tail...Both rock if there New, Metal, And Shiny!!!:) Really the square tail is a Good Option, weather you race, free ride, or both. Its much better in every condition. There really arent too many negatives other than the dings on the top sheet when you board falls over...I HATE THAT!!!

I agree with bordy, My donek GS 175 Olympic has a crap load more pop in the tail Than My Metal Series 183. Both have progressive flex but the tail on the Donek is super snappy as were the metal series is softer and a bit slower from turn to turn.

P.S. Anybody know if Kessler is making any Rounded Tail models???