Board Characteristics & Specs

[Bamboo_Girl]

In getting into snowboarding, it seems to me that some things aren't so well defined. People speak of a board being stable, skittish, great pop, no pop, edgy, skittish, etc. Then you have weight ranges for a board as well as different lengths.

I'm sure those of you with experience can decipher this stuff on the bat, but I find it hard to understand all of the how's and why's. Specifically, I'm interested in how you can estimate or at least guess flex/stiffness & stability/instability from specs, and maybe pop too.

What gives a board more (or less) pop (or is it spring?) Is it the materials it is made from? Or is it a function of flex?

Can you compare the flex just by looking at the recommended weight ranges? For example....a 150 lb rider on a board with a range of 140-200 is going to be in for a stiff ride as opposed to a softer, flexier ride on a board with a range of 100-160? What if one of the boards is a freestyle board with a higher weight range as compared to a freeride board with a lower weight range?

What about length? Does length really impact how stable a board is, or is that a property of the board's flex? I'm guessing you'd go faster on a longer board, if nothing else?

Just trying to make sense of board specs so I can know, hopefully, what to expect.

[Jack Michaud]

here's some reading on the subject:
http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/how_to_buy_snowboard.cfm

[tex1230]

What gives a board more (or less) pop (or is it spring?) Is it the materials it is made from? Or is it a function of flex?

It's the materials and how they are put together


Can you compare the flex just by looking at the recommended weight ranges? For example....a 150 lb rider on a board with a range of 140-200 is going to be in for a stiff ride as opposed to a softer, flexier ride on a board with a range of 100-160? What if one of the boards is a freestyle board with a higher weight range as compared to a freeride board with a lower weight range?.

Flex is difficult and varies by manufacturer and board type. best way to tell is by hand flexing the board...but I would say a board with a weight range of 140-200 will be significantly stiffer than one with a range of 100-160, regardless of freestyle vs freeride.


What about length? Does length really impact how stable a board is, or is that a property of the board's flex? I'm guessing you'd go faster on a longer board, if nothing else?

you can go as fast as you want. a board with a longer effective edge will be more stable at speed. board length can be misleading. always look at effective edge.

EDIT: I stand corrected after looking at Jack's article. I meant Running Length, not effective edge.

[Bamboo_Girl]

Wow thanks! You guys rock :)

That was really helpful. The article gives a good look at most of those things I mentioned.

Flex I know, seems a bit, let's say, unmeasured in terms of a number (as opposed to sidecut or length). Then those weight ranges, would at least give me an idea I think, as was suggested.

I'm looking at some new freestyle boards, but the girl's boards are all really small and flexy for someone my size. So I'll probably opt for a guy's freestyle board. Since the weight ranges and lengths are different, I'll have a better idea, after your comments, of what to expect.

I don't do much in the way of rails but like jumps and really want to hit the pipe. So I figure pop for jumps, and stiffness + edge hold for the pipe is my ideal freestyle board.

[Neil Gendzwill]

There's no universal way to measure stiffness. Some manufacturers have relative stiffness numbers across all boards (Burton, Donek). Coiler has a stiffness number that's only good for comparing boards of the same length. Nobody has a way of comparing across manufacturers. Honestly your best bet is to come here and ask, it's surprising how often people will know the board and say "I rode that and it's stiffer than X but softer than Y" or something like that.

[Dave Pushee]

Honestly, the only way I have ever been able to know if a board will work for me is to ride it.

If you are looking at softboot boards, ask friends if you can try theirs out for a few runs. Or, stop by a board shop and rent a demo board for the day. That will give you some basis for comparison.

If you are looking at boards designed for hardbooters, your best bet is to plan to attend one of the bomber expression sessions where demo boards will be available.

[Buell]

Neil has touched on my method. If you ride as many boards as possible in the discipline you are interested in (alpine for me), you are able to create a method of communication with other riders who have also ridden those boards. You can then understand where they are coming from when and how it might affect you when they talk about a board you have not ridden.

Unfortunately, aside from the specs given for all boards, you will often need to talk to others to figure out the other stuff like flex or pop. The snowboard world, especially non-alpine, is so full of short marketing blurbs that really tell you nothing about the board. In the alpine world, a lot of the wonderful small manufacturers can tell you very clearly how their boards will compare to someone else's boards.

If you are even slightly aggressive, there is a strong chance you will give up quickly on women's FS / FR type boards. Rebecca started snowboarding last year and quickly went through two new women's Freeride boards before realizing they are not made for women who really want to ride. Unless, perhaps, you are 110 pounds.

[Istvan]

Jack, this is a great tech article including all the important factors.


Just one question, though: there are many shapes that I have difficulty classifying into the 3 categories you gave, for example the new wide body concept, or the very narrow boards of Virus, or the aggressive carving shapes like Virus Gladiator which I would never call a forgiving freecarve board.

How would you classify these?

Thanks,

István

[Bamboo_Girl]

Spot-on, just spot-on. Really good points being made.

Much as I hate to say it, I've ridden a grand total of 2 boards. My very first day of snowboarding, I rented a board and was obviously much more worried about not hurting myself and staying upright than anything else. Other than that, I've only been on my Arbor Push 156.

Thing about the Push is, it is rated up to 170 pounds (which is what I weigh not counting boots, etc), and has a SCR of 7.6. Without having tried another board I can't say for sure, but I suspect this board is now soft and not so stable for me as compared to other boards that would be longer, stiffer, and with a bigger SCR? On this board I find bumps and cut-up snow, really unsettling and they quickly kill my confidence.

I'm looking at an Arbor Mystic (a freestyle deck), but am thinking it may actually be a better carving/mountain board than mine, ironically enough. The 158cm Mystic, has a SCR of 8.5/7.9/8.5, weight range of 120-190 as compared to my present board. If nothing else it would be stiffer. Not that I would buy it to be a hard carving board.

As far as girl's boards, that was so true! You are lucky to find anything rated up to 150 pounds, much less more than that. I'm not heavy or anything, but I'm also not your average 5'4" girl! Not to mention, most of the boards are freestyle oriented, which is cool, but even those are too small for me.

I'm going to call around town and see if I can at least rent another board. If nothing else,, I'd have something to compare it with.

[Jack Michaud]

Jack, this is a great tech article including all the important factors.


Just one question, though: there are many shapes that I have difficulty classifying into the 3 categories you gave, for example the new wide body concept, or the very narrow boards of Virus, or the aggressive carving shapes like Virus Gladiator which I would never call a forgiving freecarve board.

How would you classify these?

Thanks Istvan. I guess there are many boards that don't fall into the 3 categories, so I just call them "alpine boards" or "carving boards". That would be the "super-class" of the 3 named sub-classes.

However I believe Race boards, Freecarve boards and All-Mountain Carving boards are easily distinguished from each other, and that's what a new carver needs to know. I would say the boards that don't fit into these categories are usually purchased by people who know what they're looking for.

I guess we could also use "Freecarve" as the catch-all term for anything that doesn't have a round tail but wouldn't be good for racing. Back when Burton ruled the Alpine scene, Freecarve was kind of a derogatory word for "watered-down race board". These days, many Freecarve boards perform every bit as well as race boards, but just for different tasks.

[abakker]

for some cool all mountain boards that can carve well and hold up in varied conditons, see if you can rent/demo a Never summer or Nidecker. they are well made boards and seem to be logically designed for a range of uses.

[Istvan]

Thanks Jack, I agree.

I wonder what major categories we will use say in 5-10 years, what else can come in terms of shapes, technology, etc. We'll see.

Kindest

[pebu]

Another great resource that goes quite in depth is the carvers almanac at www.alpinecarving.com (http://www.alpinecarving.com).

[jnshapiro]

One of my pet peeves is companies that market sporting equipment as "women's boards." It does a disservice to everyone, and is often an excuse to get away with making substandard equipment. There are a few exceptions, but they are far between.

Get a board that fits the way you want to ride and your own individual size. Forget about labels on equipment.

[Bamboo_Girl]

pebu - great link! I found some good write-ups on that site. It seems more geared towards, um, what is it called, EC? That lay-on-the-snow-as-you-carve-style?

jnshapiro - i have to think you are right about that. A lot of women's gear seems to be just detuned men's stuff with different colors. Women's bikes are probably the one item I've seen that is thoughtfully made since we have different body types (torso & leg length's) - although they tend to be made for smaller girls.

All - looks like I'm going to be getting a real lesson on board characteristics this coming weekend. I've got a 162 Arbor Mystic, a 166 Arbor Crossbow, plus my 156 Push to try out. Wish I had a freecarve or boardercross to try, but I bet these 3 will be rather educational. I'll go through the park, do some jumps, ollies, butters, presses, then some norm carves, a little cross-under & through, try some steeps, and see how they work.

No doubt the adjustment tool is going to get a lot of use as I move my bindings back and forth. Can't wait to try them all out, how exciting! :)

[BShaw]

You really need to determine how you ride, or would like to ride, snow conditions you would see at your local hills, and how much time you spend in the park/pipe compared to groomed runs. As far as getting a board that will perform for your size, you may want to look at http://www.donek.com He should be able to get you into a board that would work great for you.

[Bamboo_Girl]

You really need to determine how you ride, or would like to ride, snow conditions you would see at your local hills, and how much time you spend in the park/pipe compared to groomed runs. As far as getting a board that will perform for your size, you may want to look at http://www.donek.com He should be able to get you into a board that would work great for you.

Hey, I understand what you are saying and all, I really do and can see the reasons behind that. Knowing what you like, is only going to help in picking the best board(s) for those conditions.

My feeling though, is that just 3 months into my snowboarding career, riding as many different boards as I can is only going to help. If nothing else, I'm going to know what soft or stiff, live or damp, etc - is within the Arbor line.

Plus, I really don't want to limit myself to any particular style of riding. So far I've done general freeriding, some park, jumps, tried the rails, carving too, and enjoyed all of them.

Next year, once my switch riding gets better, I'd like to get into the pipe too. I am not especially wanting to excel at anything, rather I hope to be well rounded and be just as good at laying down carves as hitting backside airs as I am doing 360's in the pipe.

I may well get a Donek board next year. I like how they at least give you a number to measure flex within their lines. The boardercross one, at least that's what I think they are, the Donek Incline, looks like something I could really enjoy.

Peace :)

[jnshapiro]

You don't have to be limited. If you really like carving (for example), get a carving setup. If it's powder, go that way. You can, and perhaps should, have multiple boards for different types of riding and conditions. There's no need to think that you'll be limiting yourself when you buy a board.

[BShaw]

I think the incline would work out great. Not really a board for the pipe though. You can also have the stiffness adjusted slightly to match your weight and riding style, this is not really an off the shelf type of board.

[Bamboo_Girl]

A little report here after the fact but educational, at least for me.

So this past weekend I rode all three boards. Saturday I didn't choose all that well, taking the freestyle deck on a day with 14" of fresh powder, but I managed OK. The real deep stuf

First off, the Mystic 162, which is a freestyle deck. For regular freeriding, it was fine, decent edge, turns pretty easily, not too fidgety at speed. Plus I rode it on saturday in 14" of fresh powder and it was alright, except in the really deep stuff - but then that's true of many boards. Not one I'd take for flying down the hill or fast carving, etc. In the park though it really shined. Good pop, plus the much wider base and more ideal flex resulted in me landing probably 80-90% of my jumps with no trouble.

The other board I had on hand was the Crossbow 166. What a contrast! This one didn't turn nearly as fast or easily as the others. Then again, it picked up way more speed, absorbed bumps w/o getting unsettled or nervous, and just gave me a real comfortable feeling while bombing some runs. The edge bite was really impressive too, just way more aggressive than the others. So much edge bite that I bailed pretty hard at high speed towards the end of one run because I screwed up my cross-through and was caught sitting back while going from heel to toe edge. I imagine that more carving-specific and/or boardercross snowboards (Donek, etc) are even stiffer, better at speed, hard eges, good carving, etc though probably not so great at powder.

My original board, the Push 156 (a women's board), was much closer to the Mystic in its freeride performance. Good pop, nice flex, but gets unsettled at speed and/or over bumps. Compared to the Crossbow it feels soft , sort of like one of those big cadillacs! Having a more narrow base, it doesn't feel as secure for me while landing jumps as the Mystic did.

This was certainly an exercise in understanding how flex, stiffness, board length, sidecut, and edge all factor into various types of riding. Another thing I've learned from this is obviously, different boards are best suited to particular tasks. Skilled riders, like many of you here, can probably do well at most aspects of snowboarding (park, pipe, freeride, powder, carving) with almost any board.

Me? I'm not nearly at that skill level so I appreciate having a more park focused board for the park, etc. Unfortunately I can't justify having 3 boards, maybe 2 though!

I'm inclined to keep the freestyle deck, the Mystic, since I tend to enjoy riding in the park most, jumping actually.

[BShaw]

Finding a board that can both carve and ride in a pipe will be very difficult at best. I have very little to "no" interest to ride in a park or pipe so I cannot help you there.

And, although you can carve on a very stiff soft setup, it is not quite as nice as carving on equipment made to this. It is much nicer carving in hard boots than soft, their is much more support.

All that being said, a lot of boards cross over from on type of terrain to another. ie. carve and freeride. or park and freeride. I don't think you will find a board for carve and park...

You really need to determine where you would like to spend your time, or bring a quiver of boards to the mountain.

[pebu]

Do people do parks and pipes in hardboots? The thing I find annoying is having to go in and change boots every time I want to switch boards..

[BlueB]

Finding a board that can both carve and ride in a pipe will be very difficult at best.
So how dou you think the good pipe riders cary the required speed and line through the pipe? They carve all the way to the next trick.
EVERY board can carve, just the speed and inclination need to be less on softer board with more side cut.

[BShaw]

I disagree, carving implies inclination. Otherwise skidding down the hill is carving with just very little inclination... Strait lining a hill is carving with strait radius turns...

As far as I can tell, they are near strait lining it, with very little inclination, in the pipe. I would also have to say the same thing for Boardercross, at least all of the ones I have taped recently.

If you are not leaving lines (preferably trenches), your not carving.
Again this is just my opinion.

[lonerider]

I disagree, carving implies inclination. Otherwise skidding down the hill is carving with just very little inclination... Strait lining a hill is carving with strait radius turns...

As far as I can tell, they are near strait lining it, with very little inclination, in the pipe. I would also have to say the same thing for Boardercross, at least all of the ones I have taped recently.

If you are not leaving lines (preferably trenches), your not carving.The last comment is the only thing in your post that is correct. Carving is leaves a thin line in the snow.

It is clear you don't ride halfpipe - all good halfpipe riders carve across the middle of the pipe to get the most speed for the next wall. If you were to skid, you would lose speed, if you were to flatboard you would drift downward in the pipe. This carving is more subtle and not quite as inclinated... but it is carving none the less. If you ever rode a halfpipe you would see that most of the riders carve the same line and you need to ride "with the grain."

For boardercross, in addition to missing Shaun White's Olympic halfpipe ride, I guess you missed the boardercross finals, where a hardbooter nearly carved himself to a gold medal (got silver). Again, some SBX events are less carve oriented than others, but you still need to carve a little bit. I guess you are expecting people to do extremecarving in races :biggthump

[Bamboo_Girl]

Hey@!

Thanks for chiming in about the boards.

I totally agree that being able to carve on a freestyle deck is necessary if you are to have any success in the pipe. We aren't talking eurocarves or GS, etc either.

Actually I think doing jumps on big kickers benefits from you carving while going up the lip. How else are you going to have enough speed to get up there? Look at the Todd Richards video's where he covers grabs for jumping - watch the approach and you can see he (and Billy A.) carves up to the lip.

I even did that yesterday on one of my jumps, since there was very little room to get any speed, (thanks to the layout of the park), other than by carving. I was talking with one of the guys at the park and he asked me how I got enough speed, to which my response was simple - carving.

My understanding of carving is and remains, putting the board on edge, balancing it, and leaving a thin line - whether you are making big 40 foot wide turns or bombing almost straight down the fall line. Norm carving doesn't require much inclination, you just lean a little and press down but it still is carving, not skidding.


It all depends on what you want to do and the guys in the pipe, at least the good ones, will carve the lines they need to get the speed for big air, etc.

[BShaw]

No, I do not ride the Half Pipe. Although I do watch both BoarderX and Half Pipe events on tv. Great HD coverage this year. No, I do not consider what they are doing in the pipe carving. On occasion, they will appear to carve a turn in boarderX.

I also do not consider turning and carving the same thing.
Really didn't mean to offend anyone.

With that said, I will stop replying to this post.

[Thumper]

As far as I can tell, they are near strait lining it, with very little inclination, in the pipe.

Are you kidding? If you have video, look at Shaun White as he transitions across the bottom of the pipe. He's definitely carving, otherwise he wouldn't be able to maintain his energy through the transition.

[BShaw]

OK, post the video and prove me wrong. I have no problem eating my words...

[Phil]

BShaw - I guess that the question is - what do you consider the definition of carving to be?


It sounds like your definition of carving and the popular definition of carving are at odds.

I have taught and coached halfpipe for years. One of the most basic skills I work on with students and athletes is carving.

You can also ride ANY modern board in the halfpipe. In the same way, you can carve on any modern board (with sidecut).

And no, turning and carving are not the same thing. I don't think that anyone here would disagree with you on that.

[pebu]

Carving would be following the sidecut of the board at any given decamberation. (Yeah, I think I just made that word up, what of it?) So yeah, pipers (That's a real word, but I just decided to make it up for this context) carve. I need to find the article I'll be back.

Edit:
Ok, I'm back...



"Carving" is the act of making a cleanly sliced turn without any sliding where your edge does all the work. The nose and tail of your board pass through the same points in the snow...

The above is from the article So You Want To Try Alpine Snowboarding (http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/new_to_carving.cfm).

[BShaw]

Wow, if that's the normal type of riding for the word carving, I am really surprised the we use that word on this board.

Hmm. I wonder what looks I would get if I carved (my use of the word) between and coming up the face of the jumps in the terrain park? Were doing the same thing write?

I do plenty of riding, when I am carving, I am leaving trenches...
If I am calling what I am doing the wrong thing, please let me know.

[pebu]

You're over-reacting. It's sounding like the nose and tail of your board go through the same point. You're carving. You're defintaly getting a hell of alot more into it than you would need to in a half-pipe or park, but either is considered carving as far as I'm concerned.

edit
I didn't mean to come off as demeaning or anything. I know alot of people don't like being told they're over-reacting. I'm just sayin...

[lonerider]

You're over-reacting. It's sounding like the nose and tail of your board go through the same point. You're carving. You're defintaly getting a hell of alot more into it than you would need to in a half-pipe or park, but either is considered carving as far as I'm concerned.

edit
I didn't mean to come off as demeaning or anything. I know alot of people don't like being told they're over-reacting. I'm just sayin...I would say that BShaw is more of a carving-purist who believes in a more "aggressive" definition of carving. Like we all agree that a halfpipe rider or a SBX racer portions of their runs... but I don't think any of us would automatically call one of them a "carver" unless we saw them laying trenches on the slopes. So on that point I don't think he's really that far off from the rest of us.

Finding a board that can both carve and ride in a pipe will be very difficult at best.
However, he is incorrect about halfpipe riding (he admits to having little knowledge or interest in it). Pipe riding is all about carving across the middle and up the walls (it's better to flat board and let you momentum carry you up the wall). As mentioned, you don't need to carve a deep trench, but you do need to carve... so carving boards are actually quite good for getting air in the pipe. I have ridden the Donek Incline and the Donek Phoenix in the pipe and both are good in the pipe. I liked the Phoenix better because the extra stiffness of the Incline is less fun when doing rails and spins on jumps (I actually ride a Nitro T2 and a Salomon Benedek for park/pipe now - the Benedek can still lay down a mean trench).

Here are two photos - me in the pipe on a Donek and Jeff Greenwood (Donek SBX team rider)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/54/146768816_11322be0e4.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/176/435420031_bc15e4b637.jpg

[pebu]

but I don't think any of us would automatically call one of them a "carver" unless we saw them laying trenches on the slopes.

I guess I would tend to agree with that.

[BShaw]

Wow, now I'm a little impressed. "Half pipe in hardboots"
Great Pic, got any more.

When people ask me about carving, and what kind of equipment they need for carving. I do not recommed they try laying out turns with their current short, flexible, small sidecut, park board. They will either end up hurting themselves or their equipment.

So if what they are doing in the pipe and terrain park. And what instructors are calling carving is different than what I am thinking carving is....

So yes, I am a little (lot) confussed. What is the kind of riding called that we do on this board. I have always referred what I do as "carving".

[V*L*A*D]

you want to be really frustrated? try teaching skiing in Europe and being bombarded with newbies (who can't even turn, yet) demanding "carving" or "funcarving" lessons....:freak3:

i've actually weathered angry parents complaining to me that little Klaus isn't laying out "fun carves" after his first two hours on the E$700 carving skis he got for Christmas....
evidently my staff sucked....

[lonerider]

Wow, now I'm a little impressed. "Half pipe in hardboots"
Great Pic, got any more.

When people ask me about carving, and what kind of equipment they need for carving. I do not recommed they try laying out turns with their current short, flexible, small sidecut, park board. They will either end up hurting themselves or their equipment.

So if what they are doing in the pipe and terrain park. And what instructors are calling carving is different than what I am thinking carving is....

So yes, I am a little (lot) confussed. What is the kind of riding called that we do on this board. I have always referred what I do as "carving".It's all matters of degree... like Crocodile Dundee (http://youtube.com/watch?v=_pWDJp7l6Ww) when he says "That's not a knife... THIS is a knife" (I linked a video from Youtube for you).

Sure halfpipe riders and SBX get some carves in... but as you said, short, soft, sub-8m sidecut park boards are not ideal for carving (although I don't think trying to carve on those boards would actually hurt the rider or the board). I always say that "deep carving" is done with alpine board and hardboots... but there's plenty of carving to be hard with a softboot setup (just not as extreme). Speaking of extreme... I'm sure the EC-guys from extremecarving.com (http://extremecarving.com/movies/movies.html) would also tell you "That's not carving... THIS is carving" with a wink ;) This is not designed to bash freestyler rider (I do quite a bit of park myself) or argue about technique... I'm trying to point out that everyone has fun in a lot of difference ways... but in the end, carving is also about thin lines in the snow (although for Ec'er there might be a huge rooster tail in there as well for good measure).

[BShaw]

lol,
Confusing, All snowboarding is alpine snowboarding, I have never seen anyone cross country snowboard...

Way to much overlap in the language.

And yes, I can carve on my Donek Wide with soft boots. Deep trench, laid out carving. Although my hardboots on this board are much more comfortable for this type of riding.

[Steve Prokopiw]

A carved turn can be accomplished on any type of board with any type of boots depending on the skill of the rider. A carved turn is one in which the length of the contact edge follows a line with as little lateral slippage as possible.We are never quite absolute(although it may look that way) in having the tail follow the same line as the nose as there is always lateral force toward the outside of a turn.That's where we experience the illusion of accelleration as we steer the board in the opposite direction.This can be done on softies very well by a skilled softbooter.My good buddy'Sando' ruled the skischool race series on a Supermodel and Ios at Vail for several years.Most people on the slopes think of us hardbooters as mainly carvers because it's the carving experience/performance that we have generally chosen this equipment to enhance ;ie trenches in addition to thin lines.

One funny thing I found when I moved up here (Idaho)was that many people will say they are carving when what they really mean is that they are simply linking turns.By the way,pipe riding and big air in hardboots is alot of fun and easier on my ankles.

[BShaw]

Amazing how off topic this got.

[RDY_2_Carve]

Amazing how off topic this got.

Us lurkers were wondering the same thing....

[Mike T]

That's where we experience the illusion of accelleration as we steer the board in the opposite direction.

People who hate math and physics, stop reading...

It's not an illusion - it really is acceleration.

Acceleration is defined as change in velocity with time. Velocity is a vector quantity with a "direction" component in addition to a "speed" component (where "speed" is defined as what you measure on a speedometer - miles per hour, meters per second, etc).

Thus an object that is travelling in a circular path (for example a car on a circular track, or the earth moving around the sun, or a snowboarder carving through a turn) is *always* accelerating. What you are feeling is real acceleration. If you shut your eyes, going around a moderate curve at 65mph feels almost the same to the passenger as flooring it in a straight line (obviously try this from the passenger seat!)

I was hoping wikipedia would provide a reference, but their acceleration article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration) is far, far more advanced.

[Steve Prokopiw]

I stand corrected. In my misguided opinion it appears I may have been refering to decelleration(actual reduction of speed of the board/rider)which is still accelleration (change in direction)according to the laws of physics.
Ironically,Mike I have often described hard carving to my clients as having the sensation of bending gravity which after reading more in Wikepedia isn't that far off. It's just plain fun.

[V*L*A*D]

A carved turn can be accomplished on any type of board with any type of boots depending on the skill of the rider. A carved turn is one in which the length of the contact edge follows a line with as little lateral slippage as possible.We are never quite absolute(although it may look that way) in having the tail follow the same line as the nose as there is always lateral force toward the outside of a turn.That's where we experience the illusion of accelleration as we steer the board in the opposite direction.This can be done on softies very well by a skilled softbooter.My good buddy'Sando' ruled the skischool race series on a Supermodel and Ios at Vail for several years.Most people on the slopes think of us hardbooters as mainly carvers because it's the carving experience/performance that we have generally chosen this equipment to enhance ;ie trenches in addition to thin lines.

One funny thing I found when I moved up here (Idaho)was that many people will say they are carving when what they really mean is that they are simply linking turns.By the way,pipe riding and big air in hardboots is alot of fun and easier on my ankles.

'lateral force' is, by definition, to the outside. a sideways force to the inside would be 'medial'. when referring to both, we say 'medialateral'.
what you're describing, though, is centripetal force.
try not to pigeonhole the definition of "carve" too much- many of us were laying out beautiful, full carves in the mid-80s on the first edition Burton "Air" before we graduated to the "comp I-III safari" series, while wearing sorels with ski boot liners. freeheel skiers carve, motorcyclists carve (using eerily similar counterpart forces and radius-specific angulation to that of an alpine 'boarder)
etc. .... let's not allow the dialectics to defeat the essence of the thing.
carving rocks.
period. :biggthump

[Steve Prokopiw]

Sorry about contributing to this getting off topic.In the future I will read up before using any term out of it's true scientific context.I should know better than to do that on this site.

[V*L*A*D]

...just trying to keep the confusion level to a low, albeit inane & rushing, "whoosh".
technojargon, despite all attempts toward correct application, can take the fun and the 'oomph' out of an otherwise pleasurable pastime... I'm sure we all know what carving is...and is not.
...the next logical step would be certification pins for freecarving:freak3:

[Pow]

back on track, I would like to do a little debriefing going by what baboo girl said:

bamboo girl had a slight malfunction switching edges on the crossbow... she couldnt get the board over to the other edge quick enough. If she wants to nail the high speed turns, she'll either need hardboots (more power transfer), a narrower board (quicker edge change), or both. Otherwise, it will take more time and effort to haul the board into the next turn, with more possibility for error. And thats why many alpine boards have near 70 degree binding angles;) So if this is your only carving issue at this point, then youve basically reached the peak of softboot gear's carving potential. About the only way to gain any more advantage in the carving field is to go hard.

another interesting conclusion: women's specific boards arent necessarily better for women. The Push got raved about by magazines, yet from your post it seems the push might be the one board you could do without. You have a board you prefer in the park, the mystic, and a board that you seem to prefer for charging the mountain, the crossbow. the Push has fallen through the cracks! Next time I take my girlfriend snowboard shopping, I think I'll have to keep your post in mind.

[V*L*A*D]

back on track, I would like to do a little debriefing going by what baboo girl said:

bamboo girl had a slight malfunction switching edges on the crossbow... she couldnt get the board over to the other edge quick enough. If she wants to nail the high speed turns, she'll either need hardboots (more power transfer), a narrower board (quicker edge change), or both. Otherwise, it will take more time and effort to haul the board into the next turn, with more possibility for error. And thats why many alpine boards have near 70 degree binding angles;) So if this is your only carving issue at this point, then youve basically reached the peak of softboot gear's carving potential. About the only way to gain any more advantage in the carving field is to go hard.

another interesting conclusion: women's specific boards arent necessarily better for women. The Push got raved about by magazines, yet from your post it seems the push might be the one board you could do without. You have a board you prefer in the park, the mystic, and a board that you seem to prefer for charging the mountain, the crossbow. the Push has fallen through the cracks! Next time I take my girlfriend snowboard shopping, I think I'll have to keep your post in mind.

...or she'll need to adapt or alter her present technique...essentially improving it so that she's not reliant upon 'jamming' her weight transfer in order to transmit her pressure from one edge to another.
One of the greatest centering and pressuring exercises which i employ with atheletes wishing to improve their 'carving' is to have them ride a course with their boots virtually unbuckled; that is, 'loose...with extreme prejudice'....
this trains us how to utilize flow and forward forces in order to initiate a rapid and smooth transfer, as opposed to simply 'cranking'.
when an alpine 'boarder masters forward drive, he/she has added another dimension by which he /she can vary radii to uit terrain/condition/pitch and velocity

[Pow]

sounds like some crazy ancient chinese martial arts secrets! ... i think i have a lot of work ahead of me next season:eplus2:

[V*L*A*D]

... close-

old and very effective ski racing training trick, which is even more functional for alpine board training, as we boarders don't enjoy the ripcord luxury of variable stance throughout a turn.
it's great to teach one's self how to keep the pressure, consistently, even across the length of one's foot.......

[lonerider]

another interesting conclusion: women's specific boards arent necessarily better for women. The Push got raved about by magazines, yet from your post it seems the push might be the one board you could do without. You have a board you prefer in the park, the mystic, and a board that you seem to prefer for charging the mountain, the crossbow. the Push has fallen through the cracks! Next time I take my girlfriend snowboard shopping, I think I'll have to keep your post in mind.
About the Women's Specific board Pow - women specific boards created for people with certain physical traits - i.e. smaller feet and lower bmis and muscle mass. Bamboo Girl is taller and heavier (and probably stronger) than you or me (5'10 170 lbs) so it's not surprising that she is overpowering her 156 women's board with a short sidecut, especially since she is right on the high end of the recommended weight range. Personally, I don't think any board with a sidecut of less than 8m (Push 156 is 7.6) carves very well at speed.

I don't know much about the Arbor Push, but I think Bamboo Girl's experiences that board model will not be useful for your gf unless she is the same height/weight; so I think you are a bit hasty in your judgment of the Push

[Bamboo_Girl]

Hmmm, how to put it? Yeah, that's what I'm thinking of but let me try anyway.

I'm certainly all in favor of the idea of women's boards. There is no question that some of us have smaller feet and may be shorter in stature. What I don't like though, is that the boards out there are soft and shorter comparitively to what the guys have available.

It's as if, the target demographic for most board makers is one or more of these: a) teenagers, b) small/petite, c) dedicated freestylers, particularly those into rails/boxes/tabletops.

I rode with several of my friends yesterday and none of us fit that hypothetical demographic. There I was, riding the Mystic, a guy's freestyle deck, and it was easily stiffer than any of my friend's boards. I tried my friend's Gnu Rider's Choice and that was like a pogo stick, although I could wheelie it higher/longer than anything I've ridden before! Yet ironically, I was the only one of all of us, who was playing in the park. Worthy of note, is that the Mystic is wide enough for me to comfortably ride in a duck stance with no overhang. It also handled 14" of fresh powder better than the Push did, this despite a centered stance.

When I was on the Crossbow it just wasn't funny, not a single one of my friends could even keep me in sight for any length of time.

Having talked to the better women instructors and riders I've seen, the conclusion seems to be that most of us are riding men's boards. Yes I know Victoria Jealouse, Anne-Flore Marxer, Torah Bright etc seem to be riding mainstream (Burton, etc) boards, but then they are obviously elite, (light year beyond the skill level I'll ever attain) and possibly the boards they ride are different than what you get at the store. Anne is something like 5'7 130", and Torah is all of 5'3" maybe, 115 lbs - so where those dimensions sound realistic for say, women in high school, I'm not so sure it works in the real world for those of us say, over 18, etc!

What I'd like to see are women's versions of something like the Crossbow or A-Frame, with a range of sizes to accomodate not just, smaller or younger or less aggressive riders or diehard park monekys. 156 is basically the longest size I've seen in women's board. So ask yourself, how small you'd have to be for a 156 to be the ideal length say for, riding powder? Now think about waist width, the widest I've seen is 24.2 - how large could your feet be before you have overhang on that width with low binding angles?

My technique? Oh I'm sure it could be better, no question. With 3 months of riding behind me, I could improve drastically on just about all aspects of snowboarding!

Anyway, maybe a bunch of nonsense on my part. I'd just like to see more seriousness and variety in women's boards to address a realistic range of sizes, dimenions, and riding styles.

[D-Sub]

BG, when you start looking at boards, look at steepwater. I dont know the specs on their lady board, but I'll bet you could ride the 164 and have a blast. The "steep" 164 is only around 24cm wide, too.

[zoom]

BG, I think you're on to something with men's boards. The women's board market is aimed at smaller/tiny, entry level riders. They're great for girls who are new to the sport, but they aren't up to the demands of a more aggressive rider.

My first board (I'm 5'4", 135 lbs, itty bitty feet) was a pretty, friendly noodle. It suited me well for my first several days. My friend at the local board shop warned me that I wouldn't be happy with another women's deck. I ignored him and paid almost retail for a Nitro Black Widow (for "aggressive women" - rarrrr) which I only rode until I stepped on my boyfriend's Rossi Premier 159. The Rossi was way more fun, and it was actually easier to ride at speed, on steeps, etc. I've been on "men's" boards ever since.

Basically, the board has no idea that you're a chick. ;)

[lonerider]

What I'd like to see are women's versions of something like the Crossbow or A-Frame, with a range of sizes to accomodate not just, smaller or younger or less aggressive riders or diehard park monekys. 156 is basically the longest size I've seen in women's board. So ask yourself, how small you'd have to be for a 156 to be the ideal length say for, riding powder? Now think about waist width, the widest I've seen is 24.2 - how large could your feet be before you have overhang on that width with low binding angles?
Yes, you are right... women's boards top out for a woman who is say 5'8" 150 lbs at most, after that I guess the assumption is that you can ride men's boards as in reality women's boards are generally men's boards adapted for women's dimensions (narrower waist for smaller feet and softer flex for less muscle mass).

You should look at Venture Snowboards (http://venturesnowboards.com) - I've heard good things from them and all of their boards come in narrow/medium/wide widths. Here is a blurb from their PHILOSOPHY Page.


We don't make "women's-specific" boards for good reason: there's no such thing. Sex is of no consequence when choosing a snowboard. The factors that matter are height, weight, boot size, and riding style. The rest is just marketing hype.

As women take to the snow in greater numbers, we need solid equipment that's up for every challenge. We need less hype and more performance. We need boards that ride as hard as we do.

Venture delivers all of this, and offers three different widths in every model. This means ladies can get narrower, more responsive boards, and maximum power for carving turns, stomping landings, and ruling anything we choose to ride.