Drive with the knees

[jtslalom]

"Drive your knees down", is the phrase I used to hear from my buddy Jay Westerveld. He used to race back in the late 80's and early 90's and would always be on me to drive my knees into my turns. Man does that phrase stick in my mind. Tonight I was riding and really drove those knees into each turn. What a great night I had. Ofcourse having the proper body mechanics helps but I always think, "Drive the knees". This phrase will probably stay with me forever. My one friend always concentrates on squaring his shoulders and feels he must always think that first in his head when he is riding. It's kind of weird but I do everything instinctively when riding but when I want to ride really hard and really round my turns I think "Drive the knees" and it works. I was just wondering what any one else thinks when riding?

[Kimo]

My girlfriend yelled at me yesterday for driving with my knees. Of course, that was on the freeway in the car.

[Dave*]

I personally work a variation of driving the knees that I picked up from a euro hardboot racer a few years back at whistler.

Heelside: drive hard with lead leg/knee (master) first then back leg (slave)

Toeside: drive hard with back leg/knee (master) first then front leg (slave)


The acual time gap of which drives first is probably microseconds , but for whatever it matters it works for me, the separation of which leg drives first really helped me on my toeside not to mention proper body mechanics to get my inclination/angulation/shock absorption sorted.

I have a theory on why this might work, lead knee driving first on heelside helps get board up on edge and driving down , (going back leg first just gets you into a locked at the knees "tripod" position), following in with trailing knee just adds to edge pressure, trailing knee driving in hard first on the toeside accomplishes much the same effect with lead knee again slaving in to help out.

Technique helps keep zee knees separated.

Before the flaming lights up this is WHAT WORKS FOR ME in my mental visualization for driving the knees in, use whatever visualization/imagery works for you

Dave*

[yyzcanuck]

...heelside... (going back leg first just gets you into a locked at the knees "tripod" position)
I won't start a pissing match with this, but I don't see it. How does your rear knee get locked into the tripod? I do the complete opposite of you... heelside = leading leg to initiate by pushing perpendicular to binding angle, toeside = trailing leg to initiate by pushing outward (45deg?) to binding angle.

[Dave ESPI]

The problem I have to overcome is opening my shoulders in the opposite dirrection. I tend to lean in with my shoulder, and it throws my weight int he wrong dirrection. I need to bend > than the angle rather than ( with the angle of my board. I also think I need to turn my feet to 50 degrees again. I rode much smoother when I was using a carve with more lean than when my feet are sideways at 30 degrees like on my regular board set with both feet forward at 36 and 28.

Push/Pull works well for my style here in the northeast on hardpacked ice and rough conditions. Once the snow softens later this month, I am sure my ride style will be completely different :)

as to waht I think ? FASTER ! FASTER !!!! NEED TO GO FASTER !!!... wait.. crap Little Kid AHEAD ..ABORT ABORT !!!! !!!!!!

[BlueB]

Dave and YYZ Dave, you are actually describing the same thing... YYZ, re-read Dave*'s post. I think that I do the same thing when I drive the knees.

As for the mental picture / inner dialogue, I try to repeat what I'm workin on to improve. Still, my best riding comes in when its all Zen...

[pebu]

I agree with BlueB.
My best boarding I was goin down the mountain and I got to the bottom and I noticed I wasn't breathing and I'm not convinced my heart beat at all on the way down the mountain... You're goin down and you're not cold or warm or hungry or full. You don't have to worry about wants cause you don't have any wants except for the simple ones... I want to lean this way, I want to lean that way... Then you get on the lift and all of a sudden you can feel your feet again and they're cold and your stomach is growling because you've been goin down the mountain for hours and forgot about time itself.

[Bricky]

If you don't drive with your knees, how will you steer while typing on the laptop?

Bricky

[yyzcanuck]

Dave and YYZ Dave, you are actually describing the same thing... YYZ, re-read Dave*'s post. I think that I do the same thing when I drive the knees.
Yep... Not sure how I got to where I did!!!

[Gecko]

that whole master/slave thing got me distracted when I started to read this

...my big thing this year has been quiet upper body, or baring that keeping the upper body stylish (no airplane and no stickbug) Something I picked up from Jay Adams which applies for me is to pull my hands behind me on big arcing toesides. I find it easier on snow than concrete to carry this out but it's done a lot to change the way I ride this year

[pebu]

The thing that keeps sticking in my mind is "commit". Commit and trust.

[Baka Dasai]

I always think "angulate", which I guess is the same as "square the shoulders".


...pull my hands behind me on big arcing toesides...
A drill I always come back to is ride with both hands held together behind my back. Without being able to use my arms for balance I find I have to keep very good form with my upper body. The image that runs through my mind when I do this is of my upper body being a plumb line - from hips to head, pointing straight up. And the challenge while doing this is to carve harder and tighter turns.

And then when I go back to being able to use my arms I start riding about 100% better than before.

[Fastskiguy]

I'm thinking about getting low at the transition and extended in the middle....at least for now.

Oh yeah, and I'm thinking "get that hip on the snow" on toeside and "Hope I don't fall over again on my butt" on the heelside. Not sure what is up with those heelsides...

[patmoore]

I like the concept of driving with my knees but I don't do a very good job of putting it into practice. A friend took a short video of me at Davos recently and I'm being brave posting it here for constructive criticism. Bear in mind I'm elderly (in my sixties) and am riding a GS board. I switched from Raichle boots to stiffer Head Strato Pros and I wonder if that's preventing me getting lower. In any event I rarely get to ride with other hardbooters and would love some suggestions.

View My Video (http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=49hapty)

Pat

[Pow]

I always think about shifting my weight from the front foot to the rear foot through the turn. It almost feels like Im doing "the wave" with my feet as I progressively move my weight from the nose to the tail. When I think about it, the edge sticks like glue. This is probably reflex for all you experienced carvers, but it's still not drilled into my head yet.:smashfrea

[Rob Smith]

Hey Pat, you are having fun on that pitch. Thats what its all about.
We younger riders need the proof, that we to can aspire to riding for years to come.

[jtslalom]

Patmoore,
After seeing your video and reading your in your 60's, I don't think you can do anything wrong. Cheers to you dude. I hope I'm still carving when I am in my 60's. I'm 36 now and wondering if I will make it through my 40's.

[Gleb]

On friday I got to ride with some guys at Loon and they told me to just drop the hip as fast as possible to the snow. I got to practice this all day today at okemo and my carving style changed/improved more in one day than it has all year. The faster you drop the hip to the snow, the sharper the turn.

I just improved my heelside to being better than my toe. I also learned on friday that its good practice to keep both hands (i feel more comfortable with just one) hovering above the board edge instead of bringing them forward. I feel kind of off balance if I use both hands but when I nail it, i can definitly feel the difference. This gives you the ability to apply more pressure with each turn. I'll try to get a picture of what I mean tomorrow.

[ecnalubma]

Hey Jt! I used to work for Jay back in Vernon Valley ( glory ) days, It may have been the first season they had snowboard instruction. If you were around back then you might remember the state troopers rousting me outta the ski school for being a runaway. I recently got back in touch with Jay, drop me an e-mail and I'll pass your address on to 'im if you'd like.


bill

[patmoore]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I got some good ideas here and via email. I'm still sidelined with two broken ribs and pneumonia but plan to get back on the board before the snows melt so I can put these suggestions into practice.

BTW that clip was part of a longer one that was shot on a recent trip to Davos. I found a speed run where you pass through two sensors near the bottom of the course. I was clocked at 88 kph (55 mph) on my board. The rest of the <a href="http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=gymnast1946"> video </a>is just fooling around on the board and skis.

[Pow]

The rest of the video (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=gymnast1946)is just fooling around on the board and skis.

The world needs more people that grow up like you and still know how to have fun.

now for the suggestion: perhaps reaching your right arm across your body on heelsides will help you get lower. sometimes keeping your rear arm behind your body can feel like youre hanging onto a pole as you try to turn towards the carve. I think i still have a hard time remembering to do this, though.

boot stiffness: I switched from the burton winds to the stiffer deeluxe track 325s and I didnt feel a difference in how low i could get, only how much more controll I had over the board's movements. If they put metal buckles on the Indys, then you might see my 325s in the classifieds soon. Do you still have your old boots? If you do, perhaps you could switch back and forth for a while to decide if the stiffness is hurting your carve

[patmoore]

The world needs more people that grow up like you and still know how to have fun.

now for the suggestion: perhaps reaching your right arm across your body on heelsides will help you get lower. sometimes keeping your rear arm behind your body can feel like youre hanging onto a pole as you try to turn towards the carve. I think i still have a hard time remembering to do this, though.

boot stiffness: I switched from the burton winds to the stiffer deeluxe track 325s and I didnt feel a difference in how low i could get, only how much more controll I had over the board's movements. If they put metal buckles on the Indys, then you might see my 325s in the classifieds soon. Do you still have your old boots? If you do, perhaps you could switch back and forth for a while to decide if the stiffness is hurting your carve
I loaned the boots and a 154cm Hot Shine to hot shot teenage ski racer who is anxious to try hardbooting. I'm delighted he's showing interest in coming over to the dark side so I'm in no hurry to get the boots back. When I do, I'll do a comparison with the Heads.

Thanks for the kind words on my efforts to slow down the aging process. Staying young is a mission with me. When my father turned 60 he was considered old despite the fact that he took up flying and sky diving after retiring. In one short generation our perceptions of age have changed dramatically. My oldest daughter turns 33 today and doesn't consider me old. Her husband is a very good ski racer and I can still be competitive with him.

I was a gymnast in high school, a springboard diver at the University of Florida, 3-time Florida State Skydiving Champion (2000+) jumps, an avid barefoot water skier, 2-time Club Champion in golf, and these days I do distance rides on unicycles and play golf in the summers and board and ski in the winters. I put together a gallery of old and new photos of some of these pursuits. If you're really bored, check it out. (http://www.unicyclist.com/index.php?page=gallery&g2_itemId=193091) There are three pages and they can sometimes be slow loading.

[jtslalom]

ecnalubma,
I saw Jay last year. He was working as a security guard at Mountain Creek. We actually rode together for a run or so. Last I heard he was out of the country this season. One of the old time ski school guys told me that.
I was wondering if you and I ever rode together. I used to ride alot with Dennis, Rick and a guy named Shawn Orechio. In 1991, Shawn sold me two Hot Logicals asym. Before that I was on a Burton PJ, the pink and white one and I think before that it was a Look Lamar freestyle and a Kemper Rampage. Out of all those guys I still keep in touch with Dennis. He lives in Woodstock Vermont. I ride with him once a year up in Vermont. Believe it or not Dennis taught Jay how to ride in 1989. Before that he was a ski instructor. He definately came around quick to snowboarding. I will e-mail you later.

[Cuban Carving Gooding]

I'm thinking about getting low at the transition and extended in the middle....at least for now.

Oh yeah, and I'm thinking "get that hip on the snow" on toeside and "Hope I don't fall over again on my butt" on the heelside. Not sure what is up with those heelsides... Rotate your upper body into the turn and bring your trailing arm across your board .Your arm at the least should be in front of your body.

[Hugh]

Hey Cuban,

It was great carving with you last month in Tahoe. I saw elements of your style that I am working on, especially your arms and upper body position. I call it "arachnoid" or spider style. My soft booter friend calls it "monkey arms", another friend calls it "Bomber" style.

Anyway, I did my best carving last week, my board was really hooking up. My first day out, I met another longtime carver (Robert) that had a very similar style to Cuban and he was railing hard too. In addition to getting lower, I pushed my shoulders forward and then relaxed them while keeping the arms as seen below (monkey arms pic). Then, the most important part was to pinch my hip downhill as my uphill arm is lifted (make the uphill mountain smell your armpit). With those few adjustments, I was railing fulltime.

I need to get another couple of days on the hill...soon.

--Hugh

[dshack]

Rotate your upper body into the turn and bring your trailing arm across your board .Your arm at the least should be in front of your body.

I get the rotation into the turn on heelside; it seems like as long as you're keeping your shoulders and ass in the right place, you should rotate as much as possible. What about on toesides, though? Do you ever want to rotate past your binding angles (as in, more towards the center of your sidecut)?

[Cuban Carving Gooding]

I get the rotation into the turn on heelside; it seems like as long as you're keeping your shoulders and ass in the right place, you should rotate as much as possible. What about on toesides, though? Do you ever want to rotate past your binding angles (as in, more towards the center of your sidecut)? If you have the speed and want to draw out the turn yes rotate past your binding angles .I can still here Shred Gruumer yelling at me to look up the hill. The main thing is keeping your weight on the edge of the board. If you leave your trailing arm back behind your body it takes weight off your edge. In Hero snow you can get away with anything but when it gets like boiler plate you need good form..

[Cuban Carving Gooding]

Hugh, I dont know if im the best one to copy but im glad your having fun. I hit 7 springs PA and had A blast Saturday .Temp was 50+ sooo soft. Looks like my season is comming to an end. I will be back out to Tahoe next year. I'll stop by Kurkwood for some carving. Keep it low. Cuban

[Dr D]

I have been driving with my front knee on my soft setup at ridiculouslyhigh angles and it works great. It holds the edge in the snow. I haven't even paid attention to the back one so I just asssume it follows I guess??? anyhow I have had a hard time translating it to my hard boot technique in that I feel like I have no movemet in the boots that I worked so hard to get super stiff. I guess I will try softer tongues etc again. If my style keeps progressing faster than I can aquire appropriate gear I don't know what I am gonna do.:smashfrea

I use cuban's hands idea and drive the front knee into the turn and it works well on softies with 50/45 and 55/50. Its very exagerated compared to the hard boots my knee moves twenty degrees at least from my toe. As long as I drive the knee I can lay over a beautiful set of linked turns down ed's run with snow scraping grace previously unheard of on softies. If I could only get my alpine setup to do the same thing I would be on to something:freak3:

I gotta do the commit and trust thing next I guess:lurk:

[Cuban Carving Gooding]

Hi Dr D, Is driving your knees the same thing as cranking your board over on edge? It is A head game trust it crank it over even if you ride it out and stop.Get the feal for it.

[Dr D]

Hi Dr D, Is driving your knees the same thing as cranking your board over on edge? It is A head game trust it crank it over even if you ride it out and stop.Get the feal for it.

no two seperate concepts. I have no problem cranking it over on edge with the soft setup but the narrow boards and hard boots are another deal that I need to work on.

the driving the knee thing is literally cranking the forward knee left on a regular heelside and right on a regular stance toeside. or rotating the knee counterclockwise away from the toe and toward the heel on a heelside (regular stance) and vice versa for the toeside. It really drives the edge in and makes it hold. the amount of pressure and how long you hold it determines the turn radius to some degree and certainly how far around the circle you go before releasing the edge. IT seems to go hand in hand with the hands thing you talk about. total edge control. It solves all the soft boot issues of chatter and loss of edge control etc. I just can't get the same feel on the hard boot setup.

[ecnalubma]

ecnalubma,
I saw Jay last year. He was working as a security guard at Mountain Creek. We actually rode together for a run or so. Last I heard he was out of the country this season. One of the old time ski school guys told me that.
I was wondering if you and I ever rode together. I used to ride alot with Dennis, Rick and a guy named Shawn Orechio. In 1991, Shawn sold me two Hot Logicals asym. Before that I was on a Burton PJ, the pink and white one and I think before that it was a Look Lamar freestyle and a Kemper Rampage. Out of all those guys I still keep in touch with Dennis. He lives in Woodstock Vermont. I ride with him once a year up in Vermont. Believe it or not Dennis taught Jay how to ride in 1989. Before that he was a ski instructor. He definately came around quick to snowboarding. I will e-mail you later.

I think I know Dennis, and I know who Shawn is but I was a bit younger than those guys, so I mostly just grommed around behind 'em. I rode a Kidwell ( highbacks cut off, with raichle flexons!) for a while, then I had one of Jays old burtons.
Jay used to call me "young William" so people would remember not to buy me beers in the lodge.

[Cuban Carving Gooding]

Dr D are your binding angles the same on both setups? If you have aggressive binding angles it is the same thing. Driving or steering your knee will angle the board over. And you will still need to get weight on the nose. A non aggressive stance steering your knee on A heal side will put weight or pressure on the nose of the board. In hard pack i'm all over the nose the Madds love it. On both heal and toe side. The Shred school of riding aggressive stance ,keep knees together,turn up hill and crank it over.

[Dr D]

no I vary the angles depending on board width.


I see your point on it being the same thing. isn't there a component involving dropping the hip or just getting your body laid over?

[Cuban Carving Gooding]

You can drop your hip and angle your upper body. Good style when the snow gets bumped up or any time you need to keep your hands off the snow.