heelside chatter

[rsqknight]

Have been carving for 1 1/2 seasons and am in love. Few carvers around here to help me out.
Am having a lpt of heelside chatter and cannot seem to resolve it on my own. Any help?

[Ray]

Have been carving for 1 1/2 seasons and am in love. Few carvers around here to help me out.
Am having a lpt of heelside chatter and cannot seem to resolve it on my own. Any help?
You probably will, resolve it on your own. It's mostly time you need and one day, it will click and your heel side will hook without chatter. But, it could also be equipment, maybe. I assume you don't have any boot overhang.

I will be back in LA at the end of the month and heading up to Summit for sure (if the snow is still ok), so we could meet and go ride together...

Ride ride ride turn after turn after turn........

Ray

[GeoffV]

I myself had issues with heelsides a few years back. I improved by riding with other carvers and getting feed back from folks like Jack and Mr. Jenney. When you get chatter or slide out on your heel side, take a look where your out side hand/arm is (if your regular, it would be your right hand on a heelside). I've found that I chatter/slide out my right are is not where it suppose to be, meaning that my arms are extended out like an airplaine. Your right hand should be crossing over your front boot on a heel side. I'm sure Jack will chime in here. Set up could be the problem as well, I found for myself that canting my rear boot out ward by 8 degrees helped me on my heel sides and give me more control and I was able to put more pressure on my heel side turns. The pictures should hopefully give you and idea of bad vs. good form. TrailerTrash is in the last pic with great form.

[Jack Michaud]

A common flaw is not pressuring the nose enough at the beginning of each carve, especially heelside. Make sure you are really getting forward when you initiate heelsides.

Check out the tech articles here for more ideas.

http://bomberonline.com/JackM/jm_profile/heelside.jpg

[pebu]

That middle picture is cool. It's like you're defying gravity! Go to hell Newton!

[oldvolvosrule]

rsq, glad to see that you have found this board, lots of good people here and tons of great info. I live in Redlands and was planning on going to Summit on Tuesday with my father. I am not an instructor but I have been carving for over 9 years, if you want I could see if I could help you out and tell you some things to work on. Let me know.

I know that in my experience that heelside chatter has alot to do with hand/arm positioning, i.e. don't let the downhill arm trail behind, think of riding a bike, hands always out front.

PS, go back to the profile screen and enable your email to receive messages from board members

[Mike T]

Can't remember which thread, but Jack said something to the effect of "keep your hands in your peripheral vision at all times". It's had positive impact on Yours Truly.

[Gecko]

I am the first to admit that I'm not a carving god but it's surprising how much seems to solve itself when you get a lot of days under your belt. I have solved many problems that used to bother me just through practice and slowing down...yes I said slowing down. I guess my sword teacher was right when he said "the slower you go that faster you are"

[BobD]

is to ride with your boots in walk mode for a while. It seems to prevent torquing the board and allows you to find the most natural leg position in the turn. I do this for a while at the beginning of the season, until I feel dialed in.

BobD

[rsqknight]

all the imput is awesome. I get about 50 to 100 days a season on both my freestyle and carving boards so I get lots of practice and will be able to apply all of your imput. Went out today (Bear) and worked on shoulder position. No change chatter still there. oldvolvosrule and Ray, am always up for learning have changed my profile to allow emails so send me a note on when you will be here. I prefer Bear due to the type of snow they have and the two runs that allow great carving (uninterupted). But have passes to both.
Thanks ALL

[mr_roboteye]

Heelside chatter can also be caused by a stance that is too wide for the length of board you're riding.


later,

Dave R.

[Kimo]

http://bomberonline.com/JackM/jm_profile/heelside.jpg

Jack, do you still have this board? That's some serious bendage.

[RicHard]

Have been carving for 1 1/2 seasons and am in love. Few carvers around here to help me out.
Am having a lpt of heelside chatter and cannot seem to resolve it on my own. Any help?
Post a video.
How can we help you if we don't know what you are doing?
;)

[carvedog]

Have been carving for 1 1/2 seasons and am in love. Few carvers around here to help me out.
Am having a lpt of heelside chatter and cannot seem to resolve it on my own. Any help?

Three things that can cause heel chatter.
1) Too much weight behind the centerline of the board. One of the ways that this manifests is by the downhill arm being raised which dips the uphill shoulder and throws the weight back.

2) Lack of turn shape. If you go straight down the hill and throw the board sideways ( extreme example) without having any shape to the turn and the board has no option but to chatter and/or violently throw you down the fall line when it doesn't chatter. Or completely hooks up. This is a situation where you don't want it to hook up for the above reason.

3) Improper weight distribution along the edge of the board. Not enough pressure on the nose at initiation ( will also result in a lack of turn shape ) and not moving center or mass slightly to the tail at the end of the turn are a couple of things that can cause this.


You probably will, resolve it on your own. It's mostly time you need and one day, it will click and your heel side will hook without chatter.
Don't count on riding time resolving anything unless you change something. I have seen carvers with perfectly attrocious style and lack of control still doing the same thing 10 years later with no discernible change.


That middle picture is cool. It's like you're defying gravity! Go to hell Newton! While I tend to relate more to the all-is-connected principles of Cartesian physics than the subject-object separation espoused by Newtonian physics, what exactly did he do for you to banish him to the place of no snow.

[newcarver]

Rode a new to me board, 156 Rossignol Throttle with TD2s. Had problems with it chattering out after the apex of the heelside turn. This was on some pretty hard cord, first thing in the morning. My entry and mid corner where good. Then it would start to wiggle in the back and chatter out. I made sure to have good hand positioning. Problem went away after a few runs and the snow softened up some. I could still feel an occasional wiggle on turn exit. Any suggestions as to what could be causing this? Do I need to push forward on turn exit so my weight goes back some over the tail?

[kinpa]

Someone suggested to me once that a longer board would be more stable. And I thought that being more "stable" ment less of that heelside chatter. I do have a longer board now, but I haven't ridden it enough to know if that is the case.

[swissracer]

planning on going to Summit on Tuesday with my father
I was planning on going to Summit as well. If you don't mind I'd love to watch you guys to get some ideas

[Blackbird]

Rode a new to me board, 156 Rossignol Throttle with TD2s. Had problems with it chattering out after the apex of the heelside turn. This was on some pretty hard cord, first thing in the morning. My entry and mid corner where good. Then it would start to wiggle in the back and chatter out. I made sure to have good hand positioning. Problem went away after a few runs and the snow softened up some. I could still feel an occasional wiggle on turn exit. Any suggestions as to what could be causing this? Do I need to push forward on turn exit so my weight goes back some over the tail?

I had a sililar prob on my board when I started... read the carver's almanac and found the solution there...

Start from binding position... ride them slightly setback from centre..10-15mm and work from there...
wiggly board sounds like the nose and tail are trying to carve different radius'... try this

Rear inward cant and heel lift.....front foot flat. possible go toe lift in the front too.... all my probs are gone after tweaking my setup.

I sometimes still let my outside arm trail behind me (pet the dog) when I'm getting tired but my boards never chatter and I never lose the edge...

Seriously.... I'd advise anyone to read the Carver's Almanac... hell I still read it from time to time to refresh my memory during our summer.

[newcarver]

Thanks for the reply. I think the set up might be some of my problem. I have the bindings centered on the board and have the lift and cant the complete oposite of what you suggest. I wanted to try something different but maybe it isn't the best way. I do have the say that my toe side got a lot better with my set up though. But then I was getting sketchy with the heelside. Need to find a happy medium. It kind of felt like I was not pressuring the tail enough after making the turn apex. It was falling apart just after coming back around in the carve. Nice arc then wavy skippy line. I'm pretty new to this stuff and have riden 3 boards this season. I probably need to stick to one board and try 1 adjustment at a time to dial every thing in:rolleyes: I hated to just let that board collect dust in my garage though. It was feeling left out.

[Pow]

I still get chatter every once in a while if im tired and not paying attention.What causes it for me is pushing the board down the hill, thinking im pushing it to accelerate through the carve. The remedy is pulling the board back up the hill, because thats really where I want it to go.

[b0ardski]

Use the search to look up "Gilmour bias". I found that a small amount of toe side bias on my rear foot eased the pressure on the tail of the board in a hard heelside carve.

[newcarver]

I'm am running "Gilmore" right now. Maybe too much? I have 9mm on the front and 9mm on the back. So a total of 18mm. Wonder if I should back off on the rear foot some?

[queequeg]

Can't remember which thread, but Jack said something to the effect of "keep your hands in your peripheral vision at all times". It's had positive impact on Yours Truly.

Ron the Carvefather suggested taking an elastic and putting it between your gloves to help force the habit of keeping them in front of you -- I am going to try that out this weekend. Keeping my hands in front and reaching down a bit for the front boot (on toesides, which is where I have problems) have helped me out.

[Rob Stevens]

[quote=carvedog;133400]
2) Lack of turn shape. If you go straight down the hill and throw the board sideways ( extreme example) without having any shape to the turn and the board has no option but to chatter and/or violently throw you down the fall line when it doesn't chatter. Or completely hooks up. This is a situation where you don't want it to hook up for the above reason.

That's good stuff right there.

When you complete the toeside turn, making an agressive move to your heels well above the fall line, combined with early pressure to the edge well before the apex will take some of the late stresses off. I will pivot on my back toes, lifting the nose to a higher line as I go to the heel of my front foot.

If you float first half of the turn with little pressure before the apex, you're asking a great deal of your board at the completion phase.

I'm also not too big on reaching past the front foot with your back hand as a way to eliminate this particular problem, as it should force pressure to the front foot, where equal or rear biased pressure should be in effect at and exiting the apex. You should really be able to eliminate chatter with your hands in your pockets to tell the truth.
That said, the board is controlled in the area from the bottom of your ribcage to your feet (core to feet, feet to core, or both, simultaneously) so steering actions performed with these segments of your body, to promote early pressure in the turn should have the most positive results.

[redriver]

After dealing with heelside chatter for a couple of years I got rid of it easily this year. Consider that regular or goofy, our heelsides on symmetrical boards are roughly 6 inches behind our toesides (where most of us carve like champs). Most of what's been suggested here (hands in front, reaching, etc) puts more weight on the front of the board, where we have to be to make a turn. Natural tendency from my slalom water ski days was to ride the tail out of a turn, and I had a habit of doing it on heelsides. To fix it, I just really focused on riding my forward heel hard in a heelside turn, and the chatter stopped instantly. Every time it came back- usually as I tired, I focused on my right (goofy) heel, and it cuts cleanly.
No hands needed either, but sure, reaching forward will help.

[John Gilmour]

I'm am running "Gilmore" right now. Maybe too much? I have 9mm on the front and 9mm on the back. So a total of 18mm. Wonder if I should back off on the rear foot some?

Make sure your actual rear heel is not inbound of the heel edge. If it is inbound you get chatter.

Better to make sure your rear toe hangs over a bit and then flatten your rear angle until your heel is even with the heel edge.

Also do not brace your legs for a heel side- turn your head way to your heelside turn early. You also must initiate your heelside faster then your toeside and be both more forward (since your heel is more rearward) and lower....much lower. You can let your butt bounce off the snow.. butt has to be over the board not hanging off the crapper.

Are your edges sharp?

Finally- curling your toes inside your boots causes chatter because it interferes with your ankles and boot flex. Make sure you breathe too- too many people hold their breath and bear down..which is wrong...particularly if done after the apex.

Also once you pass the fall line or apex... don't press into the snow anymore- just glide and flow with it....very important
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[Dave ESPI]

I was out today with BobbyBugs and my issue is not chatter, but just not able to get the hip down and out low enough. Part of my issue was not "stearing the big bus wheel" up and into the hill with my arms and shoulders and leaving my back knee out high and dry while opening my back arm up ( an old habbit "coffee cup holder" soft boot counter ballance technique thing I do) and I need to quiet down my back arm and reach forward (flying like Superman) when powering into the turn. Part of my issue too is I am tall, and I just have not found the board I like yet for a euro carve style :(

For BX and gates, I'm all set with technique and don't have heel chatter. I drive with the hip and pinch "cowboy" style inward with the back foot and keep my weight to the nose as I enter the turn, then slide my mass back and hunker lower on the back knee pressed into my front thigh.

when I try to find the euro style "sweet spot" on the rentiger I was on, It would almost run away from me, or I'd turn it so hard and fast, it would scare the piss outa me.

[John Gilmour]

The renntiger has such a progressive sidecut that on heelside if executed low and forward with kneedrive- the board flexes so much the sidecut gets really extreme...even on the GS ones- that it can come around super fast.

I've always liked the renntiger for people who have narrow steep trails because you can dump a lot of speed in turns easily with that sidecut. But once you really start to power it well- you'll want a less progressive sidecut board.

So maybe it is time to add to your quiver...
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[carvedog]

if we get lazy in our turns we start to float back with the hands
hips etc. I use a fun way to get my energy back up front...
hold your hands out in front of you and imagine that they are on
the steering wheel of your car...all turning is initiated by those hands
out in front so just turn the wheel...:biggthump

Turns initiated by the hands or upper body is counter to everything that I have been teaching for the last 14 years. Using cues like this to remind yourself of a body position may be all right. In the overall scheme of things I like to think about movement patterns that work not necesarily body positions. I also use steering wheel analogies, mtn bike handlebars airplane wings in front to try to keep the groms from dropping hands back behind their butt - so I guess that is the same thing in a way. But not for turn initiation.

At higher end carving levels I try to focus more on spinal flexion, shoulders level to the slope, etc to get into more flexible "tools".

[carvedog]

well, as I said, I use this to get my energy back to the front...
My hands lead me down the hill, maybe this is just my style.
It would seem from looking at your cool Avatar pic that our styles
are the same however?:biggthump

Yeah. I wasn't trying to pick you apart on this. It was just thinking about starting the turn with the hands ( steering wheel ) that caught my eye. Probably not worth worrying about for most. Definitely anyting that keeps the weight momentum forward isn't a bad thing. I have seen it so many times when my riders drop their hands back, their butt will soon follow.

Thanks for the stoke on the avatar pic. Since I am usually on the other side of the camera, this is maybe the only pic that I have of me carving. Have some video that I can't get to load on the puter or I could grab a single frame.

[Dave ESPI]

Rentiger comments, & maybe it is time to add to your quiver...

Ya. I have only been on 3 different boards so far. The RT is a board that just wants to turn and do it when it want too. I actualy found myself pressing outward a few times to get it to re-camber and exit a hard over initiated turn. I've pressured turns on my soft gear and hard gear alike that make your body "cunch and hunkerdown" with just simple g-force of a snap turn. I like that power, but only when I am in control of it.

Dont much care for "suprises" and the "scorpion tail" end of a carved swath as it hooks way back up at the end or middle of it into a little "stinger".

The RT is not a "keeper" quiver board for me. Its "fun", but after having a few yardsales and choppy chattered out slides I can see myself seriously getting wrecked on it knowing myself & ride style alone.

I think I'm going longer (177 ish) and with something that will just have nice long sweeping turns and still retain the ability to "STOP" on a dime... not turn on one.. LOL

[John Gilmour]

Have been carving for 1 1/2 seasons and am in love. Few carvers around here to help me out.
Am having a lpt of heelside chatter and cannot seem to resolve it on my own. Any help?

Also if you are moving fast and get too inside of the turn with your hips- momentum downforce starts to become a larger component of centripedial lateral force.

When that centripedial force exceeds the downforce in terms of your momentum you blow out of the snow. And this is caused by your board actually being pushed up and out of the groove that your made- because the lateral force is overcoming downforce for the moment. The your board chatters as it struggles to reset the edge and again... unsets it an instant later as your momentum is no longer going in an arc- but in a straight line down hill. with each unsetting and resetting of the edge your force vector moves less in the arc and more downhill (assuming some of your board is gripping somewhere along the edge)

Applying more downforce by threading the knee through can solve this but better still to climb atop the edge instead of away from it. Ie open your armpit to tehhill and level your shoulders.... do not take my avatar as an example- that was shot for a photo and not for form.

However- when you are that low.. unlevel shoulders don't matter so much ..which is why I am not chattering.
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[bobdea]

Ya. I have only been on 3 different boards so far. The RT is a board that just wants to turn and do it when it want too. I actualy found myself pressing outward a few times to get it to re-camber and exit a hard over initiated turn. I've pressured turns on my soft gear and hard gear alike that make your body "cunch and hunkerdown" with just simple g-force of a snap turn. I like that power, but only when I am in control of it.

Dont much care for "suprises" and the "scorpion tail" end of a carved swath as it hooks way back up at the end or middle of it into a little "stinger".

The RT is not a "keeper" quiver board for me. Its "fun", but after having a few yardsales and choppy chattered out slides I can see myself seriously getting wrecked on it knowing myself & ride style alone.

I think I'm going longer (177 ish) and with something that will just have nice long sweeping turns and still retain the ability to "STOP" on a dime... not turn on one.. LOL

How much do you weigh?

look in the classifieds and if you like the description we can work something out, that board is very demanding though.

[John Gilmour]

Just kidding....:D
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