TD2 standard breakage X2

[shane groshong]

So I have now broke two shoulder bolts on TD2 standards. Both have come on the heel bail shoulder bolt. I purchased these binding last march and only have about 10 days on them, bolt broke about two weeks ago. I order all new replacement parts (bail, spring lug, spring, heel block, and shoulder bolt). The next day I rode the bolt broke again. So is anyone upgrading the bolt to a stronger material.

Now some of you would say contact Fin. I have, two email, and two phone messages. No response. I feel this is a serious issue. No one wants to ride and feel their binding are going to fail. Any suggestions.

[bobdea]

they were gone to steamboat for a few days recently

anyway, there is something wrong here.
what boot are you using and how tight are your bails?
Many people set their bails so tight that both their bails deform as well as their boots.

[shane groshong]

So I am using Indy's. I can open my bails with two fingers. I have asked everyone I ride with who all use TD2's and have never seen this happen. I also have had these people watch me get in and each of them have not expressed a concern. I feel this is a pretty serious issue. In my opinion they have had over a week to respond, and i have had no response.

[philfell]

I know a few people who have broke shoulder bolts, and other parts of Bombers, but this is a rare thing and usually after heavey useage. I hate to say it but it sounds like user set-up. The shear strength on the shoulder bolts is quite high, to break two new ones with very minimal usage seems a bit odd to me.

I know for a fact that Fin and Michelle take safety and the quality of their product seriously. They were in Steamboat supporting the latest Race To The Cup event so they have been out of the office since Thursday. Give them another day to get back to you then try them again and see if you can talk it over with them and trouble shoot the problem.

[shane groshong]

I can understand how one my suggest that this is user set-up, howevever we are talking about a shoulder bolt. This is not rocket science. Once is a fluke, two times is a situation. I will give them another day or as many as it takes. I want the most for Bomber and the products they make for us. I feel this is a serious issue especially with the currrent situation that Bomber is in. I have brought this to their attention to help with any future situations. I just want to feel like they care about a breakage problem. I don't wan't to get hurt.

[philfell]

I understand what you are saying, but to me once is a fluke twice in less than a week is operator error somehow. If it was a flaw in the manufacturing procees or design then at that rate people would be snapping bolts daily.


Is there a weird burr on the bail shoulder where the bolt goes through that would be scoring the bolt causing it to break? Is it the same bolt that keep breaking (ie rear heel bail, outside of the foot, ect.) or was the second one in a different location? I'm pretty sure they use a stainless steel bolt, the shear strength is very high. Your tib/fib should break well before you can create enough leverage to shear off a new bolt. Check every part of the binding that touches the bolt and feel for a sharp burr that maybe didn't get taken off while in the tumbler. Or some other reason that would cause a bolt to fail.

[shane groshong]

Here's the deal. First time front foot heel backside. Next time rear foot heel backside. But every part was new (bail, heel block, bolt, spring lug, spring) all new parts, but same base plate. I know what you are saying, but after checking all parts and replacing everything I doubt it.

[mr_roboteye]

Could be a bad batch of bolts. Improper heat treating, not stress relieved properly during manufacturing? Worn out thread rolling dies at factory. There are many possibilities. You could also have the most powerful carves on the planet.

It could also be that they were overtightened. Stainless steel yields (breaks) with a different feel than normal bolts. I use them at work from time to time and have broken some too.

Dave R.

[shane groshong]

Dave,

I agree. People tend to be under the assumption that stainless is super tough. In fact many carbon bolts are much stronger, yet do not yield the corrosive properties as stainless. Thanks for your input.

[bobdea]

dude, if you're breaking stuff this often there is something unique about your setup
from experience you will rip the the inserts from the board or your bones will break before you bindings consistantly fail with everything properly set up with the TD2.

I have seen people do some wacky stuff, a friend of mine used to break bails, boards and boots on about every third day on the hill he would have as well as deform the ledges of his boots because he was convinced he had to ride a 21 inch(he had pretty short legs too!) stance, flat with the cuffs of his boots pointed out. After examining his setup I saw this and made a bet that if he let me do some tweaking he'd be fine for the rest of the season. I was right, he was fighting his own stance in a very rugged boot, on a binding that had no give(td1) on a big stiff GS plank, when I toned it down for him a little he stopped busting up everything.
my point is that even if you can't see it there may be a hidden factor here that you can't see, I have literally ripped cateks and bombers out of boards and detroyed boots and bones and the only thing even close to what I'd call a failure was that I bent some bails on my cateks.
I have had plastic bindings explode though, but even then it was on the outer limits of normal use.
BTW I weigh 250 or so and used to ride pretty aggressively so I am no lightweight either.

[bobdea]

I was under the impression that stainless is good in two areas, if it needs to be strong but flex a little(it would bend instead of shear away) more and where corrosion is a issue.
Am I wrong?

[shane groshong]

Bobdea,

I am riding a 20 inch stance, I am 6'1'' tall. I am riding indy's ( stiff). 3 degree toe lift, 6 degree heel, and both times it happened on a donek axxess 182. First time front foot, next time back foot. I am 225lbs so I am definitely not small.

I also rode rossi's 190 and 184, and just started riding a Tinkler 185, no breakage. I see what you are saying, but come on. Shoulder bolts should not break. I rode burton race plates last year which flex and allow you to gain momentum, a stiff binding allows none of this.

[bobdea]

what I am saying is that there is something going on that must be causing this somewhere, bad bolts does sound possible, I broke four derailers in about a week when I was a little kid, it turned out that three of them were junk to begin with due to bolts failing in the same spot after replacing them enough and waiting for a new order to come in I never broke one again. the guy at the store seemed to think that the factory must have been using bad hardware so it's possible.
it is also possible that there is something going on that is causing unusual stress on the part.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Could be a bad batch of bolts. Improper heat treating, not stress relieved properly during manufacturing? Worn out thread rolling dies at factory. There are many possibilities. You could also have the most powerful carves on the planet.

It could also be that they were overtightened. Stainless steel yields (breaks) with a different feel than normal bolts. I use them at work from time to time and have broken some too.

Dave R.

Good points all.

Most have had a binding release unexpectedly. It is both dangerous and un-nerving to say the least. Shane is a big, strong rider. He gets after it and in doing so must commit to the carve. I am certain it is part of why he bought Bombers. They are burly, and we all trust them to hold us securely on our snowboards. Lets hope the issue is resolved quickly. There is allot at stake.

No one, including myself, wants to ride with wonder!

I know that Shane is riding frequently and is anxous to have the confidence with all have with Bombers restored.
Bryan

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Bobdea,

I am riding a 20 inch stance, I am 6'1'' tall. I am riding indy's ( stiff). 3 degree toe lift, 6 degree heel, and both times it happened on a donek axxess 182. First time front foot, next time back foot. I am 225lbs so I am definitely not small.

I also rode rossi's 190 and 184, and just started riding a Tinkler 185, no breakage. I see what you are saying, but come on. Shoulder bolts should not break. I rode burton race plates last year which flex and allow you to gain momentum, a stiff binding allows none of this.

Shane, looking forward to seeing you put the meat to the Tinkler 185cm "Ryan McDonald". I know you have been leaning toward wider boards. Glad to see it stay in the PNW.

[shane groshong]

Thanks Bryan. Look forward to riding with you in the upcoming weeks.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Any word? Makes me wonder on every turn.

Sure be good to nip this in the bud.

[shane groshong]

Emailed and things are being taken care of. Thanks for all the input.

[Paulk]

I broke one bolt last year.. found that I let my boot get a little loose in the binding over the course of a few days, causing the heel bail to bend, this in turn created an alignment issue with the shoulder bolts...essentially loading the bolts at an angle NOT 90 degrees to the centerline. Now, I make certain to micro adjust the bails using the lugs as a guide, to assure everything squares up. Assemble shoulder bolts with locktight on the threads, and bomber butter on the pivot surface.. After assembly the heel bail must move freely with no stickiness, otherwise readjust the lugs..

A side note: I destroyed the walking pads on my boots (deelux suzuka), particularly the heel pads, this contributed to the bent heel bail because the boot no longer wanted to sit square in the binding.

Long story short...check the entire system, boots to bindings. check for bent bails, bad heel pads, bad alignment, and lastly a bent plate..
wish you good luck, and safe turns.

Edit: didn't see your last post when I started this one..Let us know how it all turns out... PK.

[wvrocks]

Emailed and things are being taken care of. Thanks for all the input.


Great! Do you mind telling us the probable cause and solution?

[Jack Michaud]

I can open my bails with two fingers.

Your bindings are sized too loose. You are excessively cyclicly loading them.

[D.T.]

Another failure mechanism to consider is improper (i.e. lack of) preload. Lack of preload is the #1 reason that fasteners fail!!!

Yes, you can overtighten bolts causing problems (i.e. shear failure of threads, yielding of the bolt...). The purpose of preload is to minimize the adverse affects of fatigue loading on mechanical properties and component/fastener life.

[Carp]

Guy's. I've got the Indy's and the TD2 step-in's. Basically sized the bail and ramp for the sole of my boot. I didn't do any adjustment with the bolts on the side of the front bail. Is this something I should do? Now I'm getting a little worried. Is the allen wrench bolt on the side of the front bail for fine tuning the tightness of the front bail?

I guess I'm just looking at how to do it, what to do, and what not to over/under do with adjusting these bindings. Some pics might help too?

Thank you.

[Jack Michaud]

Guy's. I've got the Indy's and the TD2 step-in's. Basically sized the bail and ramp for the sole of my boot. I didn't do any adjustment with the bolts on the side of the front bail. Is this something I should do? Now I'm getting a little worried. Is the allen wrench bolt on the side of the front bail for fine tuning the tightness of the front bail?

I guess I'm just looking at how to do it, what to do, and what not to over/under do with adjusting these bindings. Some pics might help too?

Thank you.

The micro-adjustment you're asking about is done by threading/unthreading the bails into or out of the shoulder bolt. If you start to see the threads, as in the picture below, you've gone too far.
http://www.bomberonline.com///images/photo_setup_lug.jpg

That pic is from this article (http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/setup.cfm), you might find it helpful.

[shane groshong]

This is really getting interesting. It seems everyone has something to say on this topic about sizing and so on. Everyone knows your boot shell changes size during the day based on temp. A good fit should fit all day and will have slight variations. The binding has its own issues if you need to micro adjust during the day to have your boot sized correctly, and not break bolts. A good fit is a good fit. It seems since I brought this up more people are talking about shoulder bolt breakage. Maybe the shoulder bolt should be upsized to a point were this is not a concern under any micro sizing issues.

[D-Sub]

shane

there are people here who ride TD2s very, very often. Many days a season. The majority of them have never had anything break on their TD2s. Quite a few of them had TD1s before, and still no breakage

the fact that you broke 2 bolts in such a short period suggests something is up, and it really does look like it has to do more with you/your setup than the bindings.

I have to say that your tone seems accusatory, and almost condescending. Plenty of people use these bindings without failure but it seems as though you are insinuating that the construction quality is somehow lacking. I and many other experienced users disagree.

You have ever right to be concerned, and every right to want to discuss those concerns, but I would say that you are going a bit far with your posts and insinuations. Think about it.

[kjl]

You have ever right to be concerned, and every right to want to discuss those concerns, but I would say that you are going a bit far with your posts and insinuations. Think about it.
Not to get involved in what will soon be yet another internet flame war (oops, too late), but I don't think Shane is being accusatory or condescending.

He says he broke shoulder bolts and everybody jumps down his throat for setting everything up wrong. Yeah, his last post sounds a little frustrated, but I bet he feels the way I'd feel if I just got off the phone from tech support having answered, "Yes, the monitor and computer are both plugged in and turned on; I'm not a complete moron," repeatedly for a few hours.

I mean no offense to anybody who thinks it was user error; when bulletproof things break there is unavoidable confusion and frustration. He's already contacted bomber and it's being dealt with, so let's just nip this in the bud and let this one go, huh?

[D-Sub]

ken. no flame war here. not from me at least.

if I misinterpreted, I apologize, but I do not think so. From the first post it seemed to me that the OP was looking to accuse rather than get to the heart of the matter.

again, if I was mistaken, I apologize. The fact that there are hundreds of users, many of them daily drivers, who have not experienced failure helps a lot though.

[spcarves2]

This kid could rip back in the early 90's. The first "North Shore Team Rider" in Bend, Oregon. Good to see you are still riding plates.

D-Sub, lay off him...he's no dummy.

[D-Sub]

hang on a sec

when and where did I call him a dummy?

[wvrocks]

I kind of agree with D-sub here. Funny thing about the internet though, tone is very hard to convey. Everyone is concerned about what the cause of the breakage is. Everyone would like to know how to prevent it. If its an adjustment issue, cool. If its a material weakness, cool. What do we have to do to fix it. Apparently Shane has talked to Bomber and got some info from them. What did they have to say?

As far as micro adjusting the bindings during the day to account for sizing differences due to temp changes, I don't think that's needed. If the bindings are set up correctly they should stay pretty close. Its not like you lose a 1/2 inch in sole length. The micro adjuster just allows you to get the fit closer than the other macro adjustments do.

[D-Sub]

Funny thing about the internet though, tone is very hard to convey.

yes, it is. I will say again that apparently my tone was misinterpreted (both kjl and spcarves) so, again, I apologize for wording things wrongly. My point stands though, and is valid in my opinion. I called no one names, especially not dummy.


Everyone is concerned about what the cause of the breakage is. Everyone would like to know how to prevent it. If its an adjustment issue, cool. If its a material weakness, cool. What do we have to do to fix it.

absolutely.


As far as micro adjusting the bindings during the day to account for sizing differences due to temp changes, I don't think that's needed.

Shane misinterpreted this somehow. No one said such a thing as far as I can see. That would be a PITA indeed.

[shane groshong]

So this has gotten a little heated. That was not my intention. My intention was to get a response and solution to my problem with the TD2s. I may have seemed a little defensive in response to some posts, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. Since my first breakage I have ordered another pair. Now I have three pairs of TD2s. If I felt like the product sucked I would not be riding them. I just sold off a pair of Cateks even after I broke my TD2s. My loyalty to the product is based on all the feedback of users of this site that support Fin and the products he makes. I got back into riding last season, and have been buying all the boards and bindings I can afford. I did this to see what I liked and what I wanted to ride in the future.

I think this has gone too far, but here's the deal..... When I see a whole site dedicated to alpine snowboarding, and bomber's product I want the best for them. We all know these are the only people we've got to keep us in the loop. I know bomber builds the best binding on the market, and I only want to make them better and see our sport succeed. Consider this as the motivation for my posting.

It seems that there is a trend for people to point out the right and wrongs of riding, or how we should be riding, rather than support the people that ride because they love alpine snowboarding. We all know how sweet it is to carve a big alpine board. There are a lot of skidders out there who only dream of doing what we are able of doing on a snowboard.

[NateW]

Can you post pictures of how/where the bolts break?

(Excpect hordes of armchair disaster reconstructionst reverse engineers to offer theories on everything from metallurgy to your posture and diet. But also expect some interesting things from this reading-the-tea-leaves exercise.)

[D-Sub]

shane

it only got heated because I rub people the wrong way. More often than not it is unintentional.

yes...carving is a blast. yes...we all want fin/jenney, bomber, to succeed...you meant no harm, I meant no harm.

lets hope this all pans out!

[Blackbird]

Can you post pictures of how/where the bolts break?

(Excpect hordes of armchair disaster reconstructionst reverse engineers to offer theories on everything from metallurgy to your posture and diet. But also expect some interesting things from this reading-the-tea-leaves exercise.)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Good way to disarm a potential flaming!!!!

Good work guys...!!!

[Steve Dold]

I don't think he sounds accusatory.

Jack, I thought that I had read that steel was able to handle infinite cycles as long as the stress didn't get the part into the plastic region. I think I read this in a discussion on steel bike frames vs. aluminum, where (supposedly) aluminum frames have a finite life and steel frames don't.

But I've also heard that stress cycles on steel Burton bails causes them to fail after a few years. So I'm not sure what the real deal is. Any engineers here know?

[D.T.]

Disclaimer: I am not flaming anyone!

I had read that steel was able to handle infinite cycles as long as the stress didn't get the part into the plastic region.
That statement is absolutely incorrect. If that was the case, fatigue failure would not be much of an issue because noone designs products/components where stresses intentionally enter the plastic region.

Fatigue cracks propagate from surface imperfections, machining flaws, oxide formation, and any other mechanisms where a stress concentration is formed on the surface of a component.

Fatigue crack propagation is a function of the notch sensativity of the material as well as the materials resistance to the crack growth/blunting process. Both of these are dependent on material properties as well as environmental conditions.

Yes, applied load have a huge affect on the fatigue mechanism. Anytime the applied repetative load correspond with a stress above the yield strength of the material, fatigue crack propagation and failure will occur in a short amount of time.

The lower the applied loads, the more time and number of loading cycles are required for the component to fail.

------------------------------------------------------

Preload has a huge impact of the stress that is transmitted to a part/component.

[wavechaser]

I'm wondering what Fin or Bob would/did say. The rest? :sleep:

[shane groshong]

D.T.
Very nice post. It went over my head, but it definitely sounds like you know what you are talking about when it comes to stress/fatigue and so on.

In response to wavechaser: Fin emailed and asked me to send the broken parts and bindings back to bomber, and said he would take care of it.

[paappraiser]

The micro-adjustment you're asking about is done by threading/unthreading the bails into or out of the shoulder bolt. If you start to see the threads, as in the picture below, you've gone too far.
http://www.bomberonline.com///images/photo_setup_lug.jpg

That pic is from this article (http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/setup.cfm), you might find it helpful.


How tight do you have your toe clips? I need 3 fingers and a little oomph.. If im feeling lazy Ill just use 2 hands, but I dont need to..

[shane groshong]

So I don't know if I am the guy to ask. I use two fingers, but I generally always take my glove off so I can really get a grip.According to the the directions that come with TD2's it says, "toe clip latches securely down onto boot". I can tell you this I have, I have no play in the set-up.

[Jim Callen]

If I don't have to use two hands to get my bails down I feel it's too loose.

That's just me though.

[Steve Dold]

DT, thanks for the great post. I guess that's why mechanics are always warned not to scratch or nick parts like connecting rods.

I understand the importance of preload from reading about engine assembly. It seems natural that the effects would translate to bindings also.

I've seen three or four boots come out of standard bindings, luckily none of them caused injuries. In all but one it was because they were too loose to begin with, and in the other one it was because the lever was adjusted too high (not over-center enough). It just about took two hands to close the binding but it only took a couple of fingers to open it. That was on Burton Race Plates.