[technique] Troublesome heelsides [Archive]

kjl

January 2nd, 2007, 04:30 PM

Pedantic snowboarding technique discussion below.

I finally got some turns in over the holiday break, and I was trying to incorporate some heelside advice from Phil (I think?) from last summer.

My heelside is still weak, and I need advice.

I can carve my heelside fairly hard without skidding, finish the turn, etc.. It's just that it doesn't feel right. In particular, it feels like the tail is about to slide out at any time, so I end up having to put all my weight on the front foot. It works, but it doesn't feel as good as the toeside.

What I was trying

The advice I was trying to incorporate was 1) not rotating my hips towards the nose so much, because it torsionally twists the board such that the edge angle near the tail flattens out and 2) dorsiflexing the ankles to increase edge angle.

In order to even further reduce the "tail about to wash out" feeling, I also changed the back binding from 3* towards-the-nose cant to 3* pure heel-lift, and increased my stance angles by a few degrees (up to ~57/55).

What it feels like

I still feel like my tail has less edge angle than the nose. If my weight was centered or back towards the tail, the turn radius would get larger, and I would start to feel uneasy about skidding out, though it never actually happened. I had to ride with ~70% of my weight on the front foot, which would then be a very strong carve, but feels less forgiving in case of bumps in the snow, and I worry about folding the nose.

I'm riding:
173 F2 Speedster RS (14m sidecut). It's quite stiff (stiff was chosen, again, to lessen the amount that the board can torsionally twist). Angles are ~57/55. I'm riding with a 3* TD1-style "towards-the-tail" cant on the front foot and 3* pure heel-lift on the back foot.

Here are some images of me last February (thanks, ScottF), before I was trying the new technique tips, but I imagine I probably look roughly the same now as well. Any tips appreciated. Thanks!

http://www.alpinecarving.com/ses06/sat/4561.jpg
http://www.alpinecarving.com/ses06/sat/4630.jpg
http://www.alpinecarving.com/ses06/sat/4563.jpg

oldvolvosrule

January 2nd, 2007, 04:39 PM

I used to encounter the heelside wash out, the biggest change for me occured when I simply moved my downhill hand in front of me. Like riding a bicycle. Looking at your pictures it seems that your downhill hand is trailing behind you a bit allowing your upper body to twist in the opposite direction of your hips. In slalom water skiing this is called having an open chest to the boat, that is your chest is facing the boat. What I try to shoot for is to have my chest closed in that your upper torso is facing the direction to whick you are heading.

The bottom picture it appears that your hand may be in front of you or its the angle of the shooter. Looking at the edge angle of the board in the photos looks like you are generating tons of edge angle, so I wouldn't think this is a problem. I am sure some of the more eloquent typers here can help you out more than I can. I'm sure someone will be able to offer you the proper advice

I used to have trouble carving heelsides on steeps with this simple change in hand position it allowed me to rail most of the steeper runs around here with no problem.

Rob Stevens

January 2nd, 2007, 05:12 PM

Oh, ****... I was going to say the opposite.
I thought your right arm might have been getting too far in front for that far into the turn!
Unless I'm getting tired, can't hold the pressure and need a big rotation to close a turn off late, I will try NOT to let my back hand get too far ahead of my back foot, or too far behind it.
This keeps me from trying to finish turns on the front foot with rotation, making it more about pressure.
You can also back foot pivot at the end of a heel turn really well in this alingned-with-your-angles position, where you pull the front leg up to a higher line, with your pivot point under the back foot. In this situatoin, there is usually a back end weight bias, pretty opposite to what you say you are feeling now with 70% up front.
Alot of the power here seems to come from the core and abdominals. It never really makes it to the arms and shoulders and winding up looking like "turned to the nose" rotation.
It almost comes off looking like counter-rotation, if you started with a big shouder move to the fall line.
Whatever you do, keep looking into the turn like you do. Your head position is agressive. Most riders get so fucused down the hill, to the fall line, that they don't really look to the sides, where they're going half the time. This seems to me like the cause of alot of stance and balance (and then pressure by default) problems.
I had some problems with this, too: Trying to look where I'm going, totally sticking my chin out into the turn, without reaching so far around with my back hand, unweigting the tail.
**I'm editing this to say that your technique is really good now, so you have a killing style. Everthing above is just for the sake of nit-picking, a brutal instructor habit.**

csquared

January 2nd, 2007, 06:10 PM

... and that's all it is but your stance seems to be a bit back of center in the third photo. This could be appropriate at the completion of a turn but you still seem to just be crossing the fall line in the photo. With your weight further back on the board, it is going to start to feel as though the edge is pressured to the limit when you are just past the fall line and exerting the most pressure. You still need to be somewhat forward of center in this part of the turn. You could try keeping your weight further forward or you could try 0 degrees cant on the front or even 6 degrees on the back to force your stance forward.

Jack Michaud

January 2nd, 2007, 06:16 PM

Is oldvolvosrule looking at the same pictures I am? Because I see your right hand out in front of you in each pic.

It appears from these pictures, especially the bottom pic, that your hips are rotated <i>back</i> slightly, as in, towards the edge. Your hip angle appears lower than your binding angle. If this is true, there's some funkiness going on there. You at least want your hips facing your toes. In each picture I'd like to see a little more forward drive with the rear knee.

Don't forget to drive the nose hard at first and then settle back for the second half or third quarter of the turn. You might be reaching for the snow a tad much with that front hand, and it looks like there might be some shoulder dip in the bottom pic.

Kent

January 2nd, 2007, 06:23 PM

You're counter-rotating with your hips.....

K

NateW

January 2nd, 2007, 07:34 PM

I can carve my heelside fairly hard without skidding, finish the turn, etc.. It's just that it doesn't feel right. In particular, it feels like the tail is about to slide out at any time, so I end up having to put all my weight on the front foot. It works, but it doesn't feel as good as the toeside.

Try moving your stance forward a couple centimeters. If it doesn't work, or if screws up your toesides, you can always put it back.

snow|3oarder

January 2nd, 2007, 07:54 PM

isnt there a euphamism for when your butt is out of place? petting the dog? something with a toilet? ......my memory is failing me :freak3:

oldvolvosrule

January 2nd, 2007, 08:29 PM

Is oldvolvosrule looking at the same pictures I am? Because I see your right hand out in front of you in each pic.

.

Jack, what i was trying to point out is his chest is not pointing in the direction of travel, for an example, look at your avatar, your chest is pointing in the direction of travel, although your hand is down at your side, which is very graceful looking but may or may not be proper technique. By me telling KJL to reach further with his right hand it would align his chest and possibly his hips with the direction of travel.

kjl

January 2nd, 2007, 10:38 PM

Thanks for all the replies. When I rode in those pictures I felt like I was overrotating my shoulders, but perhaps for me rotating my shoulders is not dragging along my hips. Judging from the photos and reading all your comments, it does indeed look like my hips are underrotated. Oops! Perhaps Jack's suggestion of driving my back knee forwards will help to bring the hips around as well, or I will have to think of a different body trick to try.

Also, do most people do that "feeding the dollar" thing that Jack and csquared were mentioning (starting the turn on the nose of the board and settling back to the tail over the duration of the carve)?

Rob: No worries on being nitpicky - that's what I wanted when I posted in the first place ;)

Thanks again, all.

Baka Dasai

January 3rd, 2007, 12:54 AM

I'm an interested reader cos I have similar problems with my heelside turns.

The general technique wisdom on this site is for your body to be in alignment - hips and shoulders in alignment with binding angles.

In this case, the shoulders are aligned with the binding angles (good) but the hips are not (bad). The hips, as you say, are lagging behind (counter-rotated).

How to fix it?

RicHard

January 3rd, 2007, 01:17 AM

To my mind, the solution you provide (put the weight more on the front foot) is... the problem! If you put too much weight on the front foot, you download the tail and, as soon as it can, it goes away.
From what I see in the pictures, I would try not to rotate too much (please, stay with hips in line with binding angle, there's no need to rotate more or less) and keep your back shoullder lower and your inside hand far from the snow. With your back hand, try to touch the toe of the back boot.
It's strange but you will notice that putting the front hand off the snow and the back hand on the toe of the back boot you will be able to put your board a lot more on the edge.
From the pictures, it seems that only the front foot is keeping the load.
Regards,
Richard.

Mike T

January 3rd, 2007, 08:13 AM

The hip position shown in your pix is something I battled for a long time, and occasionally still find myself reverting to (especially on steep, narrow runs).

IIRC you attended a Snowperformance camp at Mt Hood a few years ago? Several of Sean's drills have helped me fight this problem, in particular the Bamboo Drill (described on Jack's drill page - http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/practice_drills.cfm)

In particular I find that this drill keeps me from rotating, exaggerating, etc and just puts me in the right spot on both toeside and heelside turns. Whenever my form feels off, I hold an imaginary bamboo stick in position and even that helps.

In fact, when I was hitting a twisty, narrow groomer yesterday (Dentist's Way @ Bachelor) and was having to bail because I was opening my hips and losing my edge. I did the Imaginary Bamboo trick for a few runs and nailed 'em, each better than the previous.

Disclaimer: I'm telling you what works for me. I'm not a coach nor an expert on carving technique (although I am striving to be both some day!) so I welcome anything someone with more expertise than I has to say about my advice... even if it's "don't listen to Mike and here's why! ;)

Rob Stevens

January 3rd, 2007, 08:30 AM

If pressure control is the main focus (for hard snow), then "starting with rotation and then settling back" (Jack on rotation to counter-rotation) and "raising the inside hand, while reaching for your back toe" (RicHard on angulation), is great advice. If you start having trouble with speed control when you do these things, there's a cure for that too (back foot pivot your nose to a higher line)

I don't see your hips out of alignment with your feet and I gave a hard squint at those pics. If you do think your hips are rotated back, maybe they're trying to compensate for your shoulder rotation, in an effort to keep some weight on the tail.

In the end, the only reason to change anything you're doing in your photos would be for hard snow or ice, where pressure is the big concern. Look at the EC boys... they rotate alot, but because of the snow they do it on and the fact that they're going slower than a racer would (body-drag speed-brake), they don't skid out. The race guys riding in rutted, icy courses will call you out for completing with rotation and the inclination because this is a good way to blow out of a course.

Facing the nose (Oldvolvosrule on rotation) is not wrong... it just has consequences if you do it on the wrong day. Jack is definitely facing the nose in his avatar, but he's not going for the kind of turn Kjl is trying to improve (the hard snow turn). He's ripping a classic "hero-snow" arc. If he wanted to, he could go full EC from there very easily.

Horses for courses.

Jack Michaud

January 3rd, 2007, 11:55 AM

Gotcha, oldvolvos. I agree on the chest.

Gotta disagree with RicHard here, starting a heelside carve with weight forward is very important. That's the foundation of the whole turn, imo. Feed the dollar.

And since it's being so discussed here:

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/image.php?u=5&type=profile&dateline=1143061256

RicHard

January 3rd, 2007, 12:04 PM

starting a heelside carve with weight forward is very important. That's the foundation of the whole turn, imo. Feed the dollar.
And since it's being so discussed here:

Ehm... didn't you post a frontside carve picture? :-O

Jack Michaud

January 3rd, 2007, 12:23 PM

Ehm... didn't you post a frontside carve picture? :-O

Right, I posted that because people were mentioning my avatar.

But here's a heelside:
http://bomberonline.com/JackM/jm_profile/heelside.jpg

Bullwings

January 3rd, 2007, 10:46 PM

I've been reading here, carver's almanac, EC and i still don't know where i should be facing.

some say to face the nose of the board.

others say, you should align your hips with your binding angles and face roughly in the direction of your binding angles. (i'm seeing more of this than the former)

I'm really confused as to where I should be facing. Is this kind of a racing technique vs. recreational/extreme carving technique kind of thing? Maybe if i just hopped on a skwal instead that would make life easier -- I'd be facing my binding angles AND the nose...

on the feed the dollar note, I'm liking that. i noticed that i can carve much tighter and smaller radii when i load up the nose at initiation, but it also treated me to the "folding the nose" experience for the first time. that was scary and cool at the same time, but only because i came out of it without injuries.

RicHard

January 4th, 2007, 12:37 AM

I'm really confused as to where I should be facing.
I suggest you not to compare extremecarving with racing technique: they are absolutely different things.
But I would suggest to try (improving any of them) all of the techniques in order to choose which suits (at the best) you.
Ciao!

Rob Stevens

January 4th, 2007, 06:21 AM

Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to the wall...

Jack Michaud

January 4th, 2007, 07:25 AM

Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to the wall...

welcome to my world. :rolleyes:

Rob Stevens

January 4th, 2007, 08:10 AM

Kjl is not the "wall" I'm talking about.
Sorry, Bullwings... I'm just being an un-caffienated prick (I should get my coffee on before I visit this site).
The intention of the feedback here was to improve a race-type of turn (the EC guys were calling it "Bomber" style), where you would be in-line with your binding angles when pressuring, due to unforgiving snow conditions and the need to stay centered and adjust direction fast (race courses).
The "face the nose", highly-rotated freecarve style is something Kjl seems to have down already and is best used when the snow is soft and you can turn where you want.
Someone used the term "Freeracer" somewhere on the site... This is a great term to describe the skills you have to have to carve the whole mountain.
Being able to identify snow types and pitches quickly will let you use a technique suited for what you're riding on.
I'll use this tired saying again: There is nothing wrong with using xxxxxxxx technique, it just has consequences if you do it in the wrong place or time.

Neil Gendzwill

January 4th, 2007, 08:16 AM

So what does the "face-the-nose" style buy you, Rob? Does it improve the quality of the turn in any way? I don't interpret that from what you say, as you advise using it only when conditions are forgiving.

Rob Stevens

January 4th, 2007, 08:27 AM

Here in Banff, conditions are forgiving most of the time, so, I like to rotate alot.
What does it "buy" me? Well, I guess it allows me to purely carve down steeper slopes, where I might want to pivot if I was "Bomber"ing it. Nothing scrubs speed in a carve like EC.
Facing the nose also lets me pivot faster, quickly moving from one edge to another, but I usually do this in a short "slarving" (slide-carving) turn, for trees and tight spaces.
When the snow goes firm and chopped up, I'll stay more centered and try to stay with my angles so I can recover to neutral if I slip.
Horses for courses.

Bullwings

January 4th, 2007, 08:32 AM

Kjl is not the "wall" I'm talking about.
Sorry, Bullwings... I'm just being an un-caffienated prick (I should get my coffee on before I visit this site).

no offense taken here at all. and yes, i would be a wall, or a noob, rookie, etc. etc. it's kind of hard for me to take in all the technical talk and apply it to my riding. I've only had 5 days in hardboots so far and i'm running into the common heelside problems that many have. also, i've never seen myself nor have i ridden with anyone that knows and understand hardboot technique so i can't see what i'm doing wrong, and no one is going to tell me what i'm doing wrong.

a lot of it is trial and error and trying to remember exactly what i was doing when i washed out or put down a really nice low carve that surprised me.

in short, just because i read something, doesn't mean i can translate it to my board, or even know what it means exactly.

Rob Stevens

January 4th, 2007, 08:41 AM

Bullwings;
Sorry again, Bro. I know you're just trying to get better. It's really hard to know someones skill level when all you have to go on is a post count.
You should video yourself and post it to the site, so we can see what you're doing.
I'd be stoked to help you out... With my job, it's the only teaching I do nowadays.

Neil Gendzwill

January 4th, 2007, 08:47 AM

Facing the nose also lets me pivot faster, quickly moving from one edge to another, but I usually do this in a short "slarving" (slide-carving) turn, for trees and tight spaces.
When the snow goes firm and chopped up, I'll stay more centered and try to stay with my angles so I can recover to neutral if I slip.
Horses for courses.
Thanks, that clears it up a lot. I've always maintained a more forward stance and facing the nose is useful for situations where you need to turn quick and not get too inclined. Like bumps, for example. I sometimes think I'm the only snowboarder around who likes them, although I know there's a few here who are also bump fans.

Rob Stevens

January 4th, 2007, 09:04 AM

I love bumps.
If I'm trying to stay with the skier line (narrow corridor), I'll face the nose, so I'm already "anticipating" each direction change.
It's tough to stay strong, using core muscles to steer the board, rather than have it get too counter-rotated and ugly, with a bunch of arm-hucking.
In bigger bumps, or if I'm setting the radius of the turn, regardless of where the bumps are, I'll stay more lined up with the bindings.
This always seems to result in a slightly bigger turn, though (rounder, for sure).
I've been riding alot of TeePee Town chair lately at Sunshine. Schoolmarm bumps are ON right now. Because most folks thing the old double is too slow, nobody rides down that way, so the snow is mint, even during holidays. The truth is, with no lines and a shorter vertical rise, it's only 10 minutes to Angel chairs 7. The terrain on lower Angel is flat anyway, so you're not missing anything in that lost vertical.

Neil Gendzwill

January 4th, 2007, 09:11 AM

In bigger bumps, or if I'm setting the radius of the turn, regardless of where the bumps are, I'll stay more lined up with the bindings.
I find in bigger bumps, I have to let the terrain dictate where I turn. If it's smaller bumps in intermediate terrain, I can absorb them enough to turn where I want.

I do remember many years ago when I was a struggling intermediate skier, trying to survive Lone Pine at Norquay, seeing some patrollers scream past me doing 3-bump long turns in total control. That's stuck in my head ever since, and I would love to be able to do that on a board. Any turn shape, any speed, any hill - that's what I consider true mastery. Not necessarily achievable, but a goal anyways.

Rob Stevens

January 4th, 2007, 09:19 AM

The bar gets set pretty high when the goal is to ride bumps as well as skiers. GS down Lone Pine is a strictly pow endeavour, for me.
Neil and I are sorry for the threadjack, Kjl.

Neil Gendzwill

January 4th, 2007, 09:32 AM

The bar gets set pretty high when the goal is to ride bumps as well as skiers. I pass most of the tourists (ha! like I'm not one myself), but there's no way I can keep up with a good bump skier.

kjl

January 4th, 2007, 11:12 AM

Neil and I are sorry for the threadjack, Kjl.

Heh, I think it's hard to stay on topic when the person asking for advice (me) can only try things out on the weekend. That's 7 days before I can come back and say, "yeah, I tried what you recommended and _____". ;)

So, to sum up:

I should start my turn on the nose of the board (I already do that) and possibly shift my weight to the back, or at least to center over the course of the turn (I already do that on the toeside, but not on the heelside).

I need to rotate my hips more so they face the bindings instead of the edge.

It wouldn't hurt to unwind my shoulders from my hips.

Less shoulder dip.

Anything else? That should be enough for me to concentrate on anyways... Also, does anybody have any body mnemonic tricks for getting those hips around? I was trying to "rotate my shoulders" to bring the hips around but that seems to be counterproductive and not really work anyways. Drive the back knee towards the nose of the board? Increas binding angle? Drive back knee towards heelside edge?

Thanks - everybody has been more than helpful on this thread...

pebu

January 4th, 2007, 11:37 AM

I hope it's not like golf... The worst thing you can do to somebody whos about to swing is ask them if they breath in or out on the backswing. They start thinking about it and bam... they shank it.

Rob Stevens

January 4th, 2007, 11:39 AM

RicHard suggested touching the toe of your back boot while raising your inside arm to create an arm spread that is parrallel to the snow, but also lines you up with your binders because you are reaching for the BACK foot.
The only warning I'll give here is to get close enough to touch your back toe by increasing the flex in your knees, rather than bending at the waist to get closer.

Jack Michaud

January 4th, 2007, 01:25 PM

Sounds good Ken.

I think it would be very difficult to properly pressure the front of the board while reaching for your back toe. Try reaching for your front toe too. See which one feels better.

Rob Stevens

January 4th, 2007, 01:43 PM

Hell, Kjl, why not just grab frontside and photoshop yourself into a picture, 20 ft out?
In the air, there is no pressure.

carvedog

January 4th, 2007, 01:44 PM

Thanks, that clears it up a lot. I've always maintained a more forward stance and facing the nose is useful for situations where you need to turn quick and not get too inclined. Like bumps, for example. I sometimes think I'm the only snowboarder around who likes them, although I know there's a few here who are also bump fans.

I love the bumps. Big squishy powder bumps, explodabumps, gs bumps and yes sometimes even tight zipper line bumps. I found out that some of my old gs boards actually worked better in the tight bumps because of the 21cm waist. It was easier than my more freestyle boards. :biggthump

To add to your quest for the better heelside kjl, not that you don't have enough to think about already.
Some thing I was working on today with a pretty good carver was to reach for the snow with the "wrong" hand.

In other words on that heelside instead of letting your left hand go for the snow try reaching for the snow with your right hand. Let it come right past your front knee and drive for the snow with it. This is a variation of some of the things that folks have added on to the thread that may work for you.

This advice is worth at least what you paid for it. Maybe more. Good luck

RicHard

January 4th, 2007, 05:10 PM

I think it would be very difficult to properly pressure the front of the board while reaching for your back toe.
In fact... for me... you don't have to pressure the front! ;-)
Well, actually, I'm trying to loose the bad habit of putting too much weight on the front foot. I realized that I could almost raise up the back foot while backsidecarving! :-( So... I'm fighting against this habit I have and I hate!
:-)

Nicotine

January 5th, 2007, 01:50 AM

One simple thing that may help you to lay the power trench on the heelside, and feel like you are a train on a track, is to drive your rear knee 'HARD' towards your heelside edge...and towards the nose. I ride in walk mode with 6 deg rear cant, always flexing forwards on heelside rails. Additionally, I do reach across my chest as carvedog suggests with my "wrong" hand. Works for me, perhaps it will work for you.

Pete

trailertrash

January 5th, 2007, 06:04 AM

Not really. Think upper body/lower body separation. One can vary the pressure between the front foot and back foot, while having the rear hand in line with the rear foot.

yeah you can vary the pressure with your hand back but i think jack was saying you cant put "proper" pressure on the front to start the turn with the hand in the back. maybe in hero snow, but not here in the east.

pebu

January 5th, 2007, 07:36 AM

I guess I still don't quite understand KenW. When I reach down for my toe I'm doing one of two things. I'm either sittin on the toilet or I'm facing the toe I'm reaching for. Reaching for the FRONT knee or toe with the Back hand brings your shoulders around so you're looking where you're going.
Keep in mind I have less than 2 days on an alpine board and I'm not discounting that it works, but logic just seems to go the other way.

Jack Michaud

January 5th, 2007, 07:59 AM

Ken, it appears to me that if Jasey dropped his hand down to his board it would fall between his toes, and imo, closer to his front toe. I think reaching for the rear toe is a good recipe for the dreaded "front hip projection".

Jack Michaud

January 5th, 2007, 09:27 AM

Jack, of course riding at that high level is a dynamic experience, and one's back hand is going to float back and forth. Sometimes it may be closer to being in line with the rear foot, sometimes it my be closer to the front.
agreed.

I'm not advocating a rigid static position at all, however, I think myself, along with Bordy, Philfell, and RicHard are having serious problems with the idea that (as some posters here have suggested) rotating one's rear hand all the way to the front, or even to the opposite snow side, is somehow going to improve one's heelside turn. Over rotation will have the exact opposite effect, especially in declining snow conditions.

Telling new carvers to reach their back hand forward always had very positive results for me when I was an instructor. It gets people off the toilet, and it helps people stay with their board all the way around a carve. Newbies typically "open up" on heelside, and face down the fall line once the board comes around. If some people find they are best balanced reaching their back hand forward, and they stick with it, then I don't see anything wrong with that. At the end of the day, it's all about balance.

Besides, it's impossible to twist your hips all the way around to actually face the nose of the board while carving. 5, maybe 10 degrees beyond binding angle, tops. That's the most important part. Whether your chest is turned another 10-20 degrees really can't be significant, imo. I'd say as long as your hips and chest are somewhere between your binding angles and the nose, you're doing alright. Outside that range, yeah, something is amiss.

I'm going to catch hell for posting this pic, but I'd pay money to be in the room when you tell <i>this guy</i> he carves wrong.
http://www.bomberonline.com/JackM/cmc1.jpg

Rob Stevens

January 5th, 2007, 09:36 AM

This is getting more complicated than it needs to be.
Rotate and lie down or face the nose or whatever if the situation allows, or requires it. Even racers will face the nose, heelside if a late turn requires the rider to do everything in his / her power to bring it around.
If you think you're going to slide out because the snow is hard, you don't want to be out of an aligned position. This is from the shoulders and hips. If your arms move around a bit for balance this is natural.
If you go back to Kjl's question, he just wants to feel like he can control the tail sliding out. On good snow, it won't in the position he's in. If it gets hard, he moves back into alignment and levels his shoulders.
Whether you reach for the front, back or middle is just a case of timing and place in the turn. Coming out of the toe turn, many fast people will already be anticipated with their upper bodies, into the new heel turn. This is pretty close to, if not fully, back-hand-over-front-foot (counter rotated). You're already there, so use your core as you head to the apex, to bring yourself to alingnment. As you're doing this, you'd likely see your back hand go from over your front foot, to between the two and finishing into the toe turn with it over your back foot.
If you feel like this is getting you breaking at the waist, creating poo butt, get lower with your legs to get closer to the edge, not your waist. This should happen naturally as your board comes under you in a cross through turn.
Remember guys: Kjl is an EXPERIENCED carver, he'll know what works and what doesn't as soon as he does it. He doesn't need his hands held (unless they're doingthe wrong thing (joke)). In fact I think he can probably already do it... he's just looking for confirmation.

Rob Stevens

January 5th, 2007, 09:52 AM

tex1230

January 5th, 2007, 09:54 AM

no need for that, rob. that guy can rip ice better than anyone I've seen.

Rob Stevens

January 5th, 2007, 09:59 AM

Then he probably knows a few more moves than the one he's doing here and is sharp enough to use them when the conditions demand it.

Jack Michaud

January 5th, 2007, 10:22 AM

It means that if you told him he was reaching too far forward, he'd probably tell you to fcuk off. If he was doing that on ice though, you might not be able to find him to tell him anything... He'd be in the weeds.

Ha! wrong. More like, he'd be too far ahead of you. Believe me, this is reluctant testimony here. I have seen no stronger carver.

Rob Stevens

January 5th, 2007, 10:31 AM

Jeez, Man... Touchy, touchy.
Kjl isn't a beginner! He doesn't likely ride, then, like "most people on this forum". In fact, many folks here just ride and don't really care about technique, so this thread is not for them... It's for Kjl.
A ripper from what I can see.
I didn't need to see your CV to know that you know what you're talking about and I don't know why my comments got you bailing, but whatever.
As for Bordy, well, I'm sure I'll have a smoke with that guy someday, but, I'm not so sure that, despite his obvious knowledge, too many people gave a **** what he was saying at the end. Philfell... Not quite as abrasive, but he's still a coach and not an instructor. Instructors get paid to stroke the client, to a certain extent, so we have a different way of talking. A coach will generally tell you like it is (especially high-end ones like Phil, who don't get paid to fcuk around). When you get "told" and you haven't signed up for "coaching", you might go on the defensive. People get offended all the time here, but when you ask for unsolicited comments, you get what you get.
The same goes for you. If it makes you mad, take a break, for sure. You should come back though... there aren't that many alpine technicians around to throw a perfectly good one away.

Jack Michaud

January 5th, 2007, 10:33 AM

Take it for what it is worth, but just so you and Jack know where I'm coming from: I obtained PSIA Level II on both skis and snowboard, and USSCA Level II coaching certificates. I was in serious training for PSIA Level 3, but didn't take the exam because of personal time constraints.

Very glad to have your level of expertise here. Don't get that wrong.

I trained for 5 years under a PSIA level 3 guy who could have been an examiner examiner if he cared to. I didn't feel the need to get certified because 1) PSIA is expensive (can you say "union"?) and 2) I was already getting the goods for free.

I can see why Bordy and Philfell get so frustrated on this forum, and like them, I think it's time to take a vacation in active posting.

Why, because people challenge your opinions? If I was that arrogant I would have stopped posting here years ago.

tex1230

January 5th, 2007, 10:35 AM

not getting defensive just standing up for a guy who's no longer here...

BTW did I miss something? are PhilFell and Bordy gone? That sucks. they contributed more useful info than most people here.

Rob Stevens

January 5th, 2007, 10:40 AM

What is he, then? World Cup champion?
Are you telling me that he would hold on is this position, on the front foot like that, rotated like my neck at Hooters, on ice?
Well he might, but not as well as if he was lined up, like in the Jasey shot. Look at the snow he's on, it's mellow! With the exception of the level arms, he pretty much looks like Kjl.
If the guy in the pic asked you how he could keep more pressure on the tail, what you tell him?

Jack Michaud

January 5th, 2007, 10:48 AM

Rob, I believe your post under mine is referring to Ken....?

I've ridden with Mr. Unmentionable a number of times. I've also ridden with current and former World Cup riders. He's not even in the same class as they are ability wise to react to different conditions. If you think so, you are just kidding yourself.

Well, I've never ridden with any world class guys on any dicey conditions, so... *shrug*. I used to think he was a big baby for riding Flatton, but then I saw him on the icy steeps of Sugarloaf and he stomped them. I wish he wouldn't bend over so much, but whatever he does works for him.

If fact, the most frustrating part of riding with Mr. Unmentionable is waiting for him to take all his breather breaks. Smoking just ain't good for ones lung capacity...

ha, true dat.

Neil Gendzwill

January 5th, 2007, 10:48 AM

I hate it when the knowledgeable people bail. I know it's hard to take when your knowledge gets equal post time with someone's uninformed opinion, but that's just the internet. The way I see it, if the knowledgeable guys are willing to keep throwing the good info out there, some of it sticks. Those of us who've been around a while sure appreciate it.

Rob Stevens

January 5th, 2007, 10:49 AM

Bordys gone (look it up and see why, though I dig the guy). Philfell is still here dispensing knowledge, but he seems frustrated too. Apparently, this forum is viewed by many to be a "love-fest-super-bro-down" only and his "on the nose" approach is best suited to athletes who he can tie to the bumper and drag through the parking lot if they back-sass him.

Virtual living is like prison. You get all kinds in here who shouldn't be together and some get shanked while others do the shanking.

tex1230

January 5th, 2007, 10:52 AM

Virtual living is like prison. You get all kinds in here who shouldn't be together and some get shanked while others do the shanking.

Best quote I've seen in months

willywhit

January 5th, 2007, 11:01 AM

Nicotine, care to weigh in on this ??
If fact, the most frustrating part of riding with Mr. Unmentionable is waiting for him to take all his breather breaks. Smoking just ain't good for ones lung capacity... :lol: really ?,any data to prove this ?

best suited to athletes who he can tie to the bumper and drag through the parking lot...on a treadmill

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1711802

pebu

January 5th, 2007, 01:26 PM

Virtual living is like prison. You get all kinds in here who shouldn't be together and some get shanked while others do the shanking.

Arguing on the internet is like playing in the special olympics... You might win, but you're still a retard...

Nicotine

January 5th, 2007, 02:33 PM

Smoke on the lift, eat the butt...my wife hates that part.

kjl

January 7th, 2007, 05:24 PM

Gah, you bastards and your threadjacking! You should know better than to post that picture, Jack ;)

Anyways, I got out on the snow and changed two things, though I am still feeling early-season desk-jockey jitters:

1: driving back knee into the snow on the heelside.
2: lifting that front (left) hand and, not so much reaching, but thinking about maybe possibly putting the right hand on my left knee.

1: I found it not as straightforward as I thought it would be to press the back knee towards the heel edge. It's like: Just like I can't push against a wall with my hand without also pushing back against the floor with my feet, I couldn't manufacture a force pushing the back boot towards the snow without an equal and opposite force somewhere. I ended up pushing my back knee by squeezing my knees together (not trying to touch them - just using the Thighmaster muscles), instead of pushing both knees to the snow. In any case, it seemed to work just fine. I was initiating my turn by driving the front knee into the snow and putting all my weight on the front foot, and then finishing by thighmastering my knees inwards and letting the weight shift back to center.

2: Lifting the left hand was easy until it got bumpy and soft and then the old habits kicked in again.

In any case, the heelside was significantly improved (to the point of being more reliable than the toeside in some cases). In particular, it is nice being able to put weight on the front or the rear of the board on the heelside turn and not be forced into putting it only on the front, which helped both in the vesatility of the radius of the turn and in being able to deal with softer lumps of snow later in the day. Also, loading up the tail and ollieing into a toeside carve is fun ;)

So thanks so much for everybody's help! Now I just need to get my legs and my rhythm back so I can get it in my subconscious.