Shin bang...TO THE X-TREME!!!

[Gleb]

After just 1 day of riding, i got some bruising from my UPZ liners. on my 2nd day out, i rode for around 11 hours with just one long break near the end of the night. On that 11 hour day, I felt tremendous pain but I rode through it and it got so intense that it just went away. I got my thermoflex liners but haven't had a chance to mold them yet, and won't be able to till thursday. I went for a few runs today and just went back home since the conditions were so horrible because of all the freshly blown snow, and the pain.

Here is the picture of the carnage:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/gleb86/IMG_4988.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/gleb86/IMG_4984.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/gleb86/IMG_4986.jpg




Now i'm in the mood for some steak.

P.S. : I love the boots though. In combination with my newer boards, my riding has improved tremendously over last year, even if i still fall now more than the end of last year.

edit: I just placed my order for the booster strap!

[Speedzilla]

What kind of socks are you using?

[jnshapiro]

Goodness! That's ugly. I suggest you let it heal, but I don't know how realistic that really is. :eplus2:

[BobD]

I thought shin bang was bruising rather than rubbing.
My second season I experienced it was after some toeside falls where I tried to slow my self with the board. This caused some deep bruising to one shin.
It was painful every time a toe side turn chattered. I very quickly changed my technique to loose that toe side chatter. It was painful. I'm always careful how I use the board to slow myself if I fall now.

BobD

[bobdea]

Yum YUM!

[skipuppy]

I can tell Bob was trying to turn me on to Gleb's super hot legs by giving me this link :biggthump I'm going to try boarding with you guys soon... although I need to wait for my knee to heal from when I ****ed it up snowboarding in the French Alps on Saturday.

[zoltan]

The UPZ's tongues become thickest right at their top edge. I think this is a problem since it provides a very stiff ride for your leg to rub against. A possible solution I was considering was cutting a long notch out of the middle of the top edge of the top edge of the tongue like my Le Mans has to allow it to flex.

[FTA2R]

per alpinecarving: "Shin bang When the shin rubs or pressures against the boot cuff, creating a painful bruise." that's chaffing shin bang vs. impact shin bang (or maybe you have both, which would really suck)

is there a point to riding if you're in so much pain? riding is supposed to be fun.

personally i think 11 hours + some other factor (boots too tight? wrong angle of something?) is responsbile. i'd really look at your setup. do you have a ton of lift on the rear and flat on the front?

could also really just be you need more insulation b/w your liner and shin?

[bobdea]

dude, shave your legs and get some mole skin on there
it works for your fee so I think it would on the shin too

[kipstar]

I had the exact thing my first day at korea last season; about the same condition.

Rode another two days on it, then spent about a month healing; not worth it (and my shins are relatively nerveless from muay thai).

It looks like it is sock rubbing combined with perhaps your liner grabbing your sock and this friction has whipped off layers of skin.

Other than dressing a largish wound and preferably not riding for at least 2 weeks to let things heal, if you insist on going out, here is what I would suggest.

Get some second skin or similar, then bandage that against the dressed wound, then fairly tightly wrap the whole section of the leg in a bandage that cannot move around at all. Then put on your sock, and tape your sock so it cannot move around.

That will help a bit, but...not much you can do about the existing damage other than let things heal.

For boot alteration, go through and check every seam; cut away any hard material, and for seams, you can use a hammer or something to soften them up a bit.

[Galen]

11+ hours?...I'm not worthy. :lol: Those puppies take a while to heal. :(

[Phil]

Some on this board would crucify me for saying so, but maybe you should go to softboots until that heals.

[alexeyga]

Some on this board would crucify me for saying so, but maybe you should go to softboots until that heals.

I'm afraid that is his only option, I wouldn't ride until it heals at all... Otherwise it will get worse...

[Ray]

That looks more like major rubbing to me. I always thought shin bang is when you bruise the shins due to impact from the tongue/liner…
What socks did you use?
Do you have excessive room between the shell tongue, liner tongue and your shins?

[EZE]

I rode in the first two days of the season and had a worse case then your. I had my original angle off a bit and the boot not lined up right. I blew thru all the layers of skin down to meat. I kept ridin everyday though and now 11 days in its starting to heal. I've never had it as bad as this year. I to shave my legs to the tops of my boots and neglected this as well before my first ride. Take Advil and ride harder.

[Gleb]

Speedzilla: I use soccer socks that go up to almost my knee.

Jnshapiro: yeah, its pretty unrealistic for me not to ride when I can, and in this case, i still can.

BobD: What do you mean by using the board to slow you down.

Skipuppy: did it work? and you better heal fast, but today, conditions sucked!!

serious: I think cutting the liner would comepletly diminish the liner's life span. Good idea though. I'd defintly try it out but I'm getting my thermoflex molded tomorrow.

Barry: its only rubbing thank god. The pain went away so it was still fun. I was still able to carve. I ride with medium amount of lift in the back and flat in the front with my rear boot in the lean forward position. My angles seem fine, what I usually ride with my old boots, Burton Winds.

Bob Dea: Next time I'm working at my pharmacy, I'm picking some of that stuff up.

Kipstar: You are one crazy mofo. Not riding for 2 weeks is defintly not an option. I'm on a month break now from school and definitly not letting this crappy season get away...even if it is crappy. I did something similar to what you did. I went home and my mom put some russian stuff on it which didn't do anything special at first, but it was all numb today. She put a large gaus dressing which stayed on throughout the day.

Galen: 11+ hours is a start. That was with a little break near the end of the night. My goal is to ride 14 hours of hard riding on our little mountain and still be able to walk to the car. 8am-10 pm. :biggthump

Phil and Alexeyga: Not yet! i took it easy today and it felt great. Can't spend any more money on more boots now because I have no where to put them in my apartment. My room is puking up snowboards, skis, boots and laundry that needs to get down.

Ray: no matter how tight i crank my boots, they still manage to not secure my shin enough. I have small/high calf muscle and Bob Dea pointed out that I need a higher volume liner.

EZE: It feels like mine is just stiffened up and it defintly won't heal quick. Hope yours turns out fun. I just hope my hair starts growing back fast.

[Gleb]

rear foot. I have forward lean one notch and can't really be comfortable otherwise. I think it is a combination of many things like some of you mentioned. Such as my liners, my socks, my angle/lift and probably my style of riding. I'm eliminating the liner factor and adding booster strap so hopefully nothing like this happens again.

You shouldve seen it after tons of sweat went through it when I went to my high school's wrestling practice the other day. =X

[Gleb]

"I have forward lean one notch and can't really be comfortable otherwise"

I beg to differ, you couldn't be much more uncomfortable in your present situation, you are cranking against the front of your rear boot, lean it forward some, take off the pressure, adjust your muscles, not your shin bone

what i ment was that i had forward lean on my rear foot. If make the boot lean one notch more, my foot gets no circulation. If i loosen the boot, I have no control. I don't like this trade off.

[NateW]

About 20 years ago, I had some soccer shin guards that were basically a thin layer of hard plastic with a 1/4" thick layer of foam under them. If you can find a set, and carve out the foam over the wound, and maybe add some foam around the edges of the wound (weather stripping, perhaps?), that might allow you to ride without aggravating the wound.

No promises, I'm just thinking out loud here...

[Blackbird]

I ride with super thin pure cotton socks and I never get shinbang or chafing at all..... polyester and poly/cotton blends tend to rub more imo. As well as making my feet sweat tremendously.
Maybe something to try if you haven't already...

How high do you pull your socks up?? (Dumb question I know but everyones different...) mine go to the knees.


Man... I hope it heals quick cos that leg looks evil.... look after it before it gets worse.

[kipstar]

I can almost gauarantee that this is being caused by there being a smallish gap near the top of the boot (the boot isn't done up fully tight/molding leaves space for the leg to wiggle a bit) and the sock is rotating as it is getting friction of some sort from the liner; the constant rubbing of the sock inside against the thigh has slowly stripped off layer after layer of skin.

Long term fix:
- tape your sock around the top like a garter, tight enough that you still have circulation and the sock isn't rotating around
- see if you cannot change sock brands to one that the liner isn't going to grip
- use second skin type bandage product so the sock can slide against your leg without rubbing away layers of skin
- adjust your cants/lifts so the boot can be done up a little more tightly, eliminating the rubbing as a rseult of the boot being too loose

Like I say, I know the pain; and 1 year later still have a major scar on my leg which i suspect will be there for life now :-)

Ah well....shaboopi.

[philw]

All good advice. If the skin's unbroken try Ibuprofen gel on it to get the swelling down. Once it starts it makes itself worse.

[Crosbie]

A few years ago I was used to ski boots, and a combo guide/shopkeeper strenuously persuaded me to evaluate some hard boots. So, I got shin bang - ruined the next 5 days for me.

I'm about to get a new pair of hard boots (unseen). I'm worried that shin bang is an intrinsic issue with snowboard boots vs ski boots.

Is it exacerbated by a tendency to lean the shins into the boots?

[Crosbie]

I had an off-piste guide (who was pally with a shop) persuade me to dump my comfortable ski boots to improve my carving with an evaluation of the real McCoy - hard snowboard boots (dunno what make).

I had shin bang/burn after a couple of hours, that ended up ruining the rest of my week (5 days). Nothing really visible, but it wasn't half painful.

I wonder if it's because I tended to lean my shins into the boots?

One of the reasons I went to soft boots was because of my bad experience.

If I'm a heavy guy, am I going to find that this is an intrinsic problem to hardboots?

Any hardboots in particular that tend to cause shin pain? Ones to avoid or veer towards?

[NB My first attempt at posting to this thread didn't turn up - apologies if it turns up later]

[bobdea]

yeah, avoid UPZ until you really know what you need, don't mind doing a ton of boot work and love discomfort.

I'm a big dude and I don'tt have problems as long as the boots don't have a wacky design
Depending on your foot I am sure you can probably make the head or deeluxe boots work with little or no hassle

[Crosbie]

Thanks bobdea,

I had my eyes on some DeeLuxe Indy given they seem to be appropriate to 234pounders like me.

I have ye olde Fritschi step-in bindings that I have always found pretty good. I presume pretty much all hardboots should be ok with them.

I use K2 Firebird H/B step-in softies at the mo, and I'm always grumbling to myself that I can't do a toe-side carve that I found a doddle to do in ski boots.

Hence I want hardboots, but I truly fear shin bang.

[dano]

Holy freaking hell! You could have a fondoo party and let everyone dip bread in that gash. Looks like an Alien is getting ready to crack out of there.

Those pics make me REALLY love my comfy Nordica sbh's and Winds.

RUN to a bootfitter brutha...

[willywhit]

gleb, how many quarters did you stuff in there? Justin said only use one. Maybe back off the forward lean a bit. A1 steak sauce for that red meat.
damn, son.... :eek:

[Bobby Buggs]

Dude that is frikkin Nasty. I have been riding in hard boots, not necessarily carving since 96 and Never had anything like that. You have something to fix there for sure. I tend to agree with Kipstar

[Crosbie]

OK, thanks for advising against UPZ. I've plumped for a pair of Deeluxe Indys from http://www.blue-tomato.at

I will cross my fingers my shins don't end up like the thread starter's.

I must say, I had this idea that Mondo size was supposed to be universal, and now I find nearly every manufacturer interprets it slightly differently.

If I round down my foot measurement of 276 I end up at Mondo 27.5 (UK size 8 when I'm size 10). I hope taking a stab at 28 is going to work - though I would have otherwise plumped for 28.5.

[Neuffy]

You have jumper's/springer's legs. This is your problem.

The ball of muscle on your leg is _very_ high. This means that your calf is quite thin where the boot is in contact. Too thin.

Basically, muscle up. A thicker calf will reduce the potential movement and make your boot fit better.

[And because someone's going to miss it, I'm being a tad sarcastic. Not entirely, because this would fix it (and may be the root of the problem), but a tad because of the unreasonable nature of this fix.]

Personally, I've never gotten shin bang, but my calf muscle extends down almost to my ankle. I have very long muscles. I lean my shins into my boots quite hard, ride varied terrain, etc. Suzukas.

[Phil]

yeah, avoid UPZ until you really know what you need, don't mind doing a ton of boot work and love discomfort.

C'mon - that is your experience, and it seems to be somewhat isolated. There are a lot of people who swear by those boots. To recommend against them is silly. I don't do well with Deeluxe or Head, but I don't recommend against them, I just realize that everyone is different and will need boots that fit differently.

[Allee]

I'm sure some people love UPZ's. You definitely have to find a boot that fits, but it's tough if not impossible to demo snowboard hard boots. It's not like you can walk into the local sports store and try on three different makes like ski boots. My Raichles fit OK, but that's not to say that Heads or UPZ's woudn't fit better.

Gleb - you rode for 11 hours? I ride for five and I'm bagged. Your girlfriends must be very lucky girls. :D

[zoltan]

serious: I think cutting the liner would comepletly diminish the liner's life span. Good idea though. I'd defintly try it out but I'm getting my thermoflex molded tomorrow.

I don't mean cutting a notch into the liner of the boot, but the actual hard plastic tongue of the shell. Take a look at a LeMans tongue to see what I mean.

[John H]

"yeah, avoid UPZ until you really know what you need, don't mind doing a ton of boot work and love discomfort."

I've had Deelux, Burton and UPZ boots and the UPZ's are the best fit of all for me. I haven't tried the Head boots because Head Canada didn't come through with their order, boots ordered in the summer and promised delivery, but no boots.
Maybe you don't like UPZ boots but other people do. Maybe it's attitudes and ignorant comments like yours that have caused people like Bordy and YYZ Canuck to not bother with this site anymore.
Sorry having a bad day and needed to vent and stupid comments like this just p*** me off.

[Crosbie]

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?p=44737
http://www.bomberonline.com/reviews/boots.htm

Having just been comparing Deeluxe and UPZ with a view to boots for a tall and 234lb heavy rider, I didn't need much of a comment to tip me over the edge.

I vaguely recall suspecting that my shin bang was caused by the lowish front cuff of the boot's rigid shell pressuring through the front of the liner when I leant into my shins.

My ski boots had no such issue. Perhaps my ski boot carving style was not suitable for the new boots?

I'm hoping that the Deeluxe Indy's front cuff is fairly high.

And yes, in the UK hard boots are like penny farthings. Even the sole importer of Deeluxe boots to the UK does not import their hardboot range.

It's strictly a case of buy before you try. :rolleyes:

[Phil]

You are 234 and tall? Why does that mean that UPZ would not be good for you?

I still don't know what you are looking at. The thread did not seem to have a decent argument against UPZ. Neither the reviews of the Raichles or the UPS's are current.
On a side note, I wonder why they are not.

Anyway, what does your size have to do with it?

It probably sounds like I am a UPZ pimp. I really am not. I like mine, but I think that Head and Deeluxe make great boots as well.

[Crosbie]

The problem is that when you can't try boots before you buy 'em, you tend to ignore the people who rave about them and compare the merits of the arguments of those who criticise them.

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/archive/index.php?t-64.html

Long shin bones plus heavy weight means the boot cuff is liable to pressure the shin. Well, this is my theory.

When shin bang ruins your week you'll do anything to avoid it ruining another one. However, I'm tempted to find a compromise between the support of my ski boots (albeit at skwal angles) and the comfort and compactness of my soft boots. Hardboots would seem to offer support at reasonable angles and a short footbed
- and hopefully reasonable comfort.

So, for me, it's not a matter of whether UPZ is good or bad, it's whether there's the slightest thing that might tip my choice one way or the other between UPZ and Deeluxe.

I'm quite happy to entertain the possibility that if I could evaluate both, it could quite easily be the case that I'd find UPZ better. Unfortunately, I don't have that luxury - I have to go by hearsay.

[John H]

Having both Suzuka's and UPZ, my experience is that the Suzuka's are a better fit at the boot top(less likely to cause shin bite) but are a narrower fit in the foot area. As I have a double e width foot I'm finding the fit of the UPZ to be better for me than the Suzuka's. The Suzuka's are fitted with thermoflex liners and I've replaced my UPZ liners with Lange ski boot liners. I believe that the ski boot liner is what is eliminating any shin bite as the factory liners seem quite thin at the boot top. Both boots were used with Booster straps against the liner. Both boots work well and fit well, it's just a matter of which fits your foot better.

[Phil]

I hear you. Unfortunately, all your references are for older boots (UPS and Raichle, not UPZ and Deeluxe). I weigh the same as you and my shins are at least as long if not longer and I have not had a single problem with UPZ. However, I have had my setup dialed for ten years, so that is no longer a part of the equation.

As a general rule, I think that shin bang can be attributed to a poor setup for riding technique and/or trauma. I think it is rare for boots themselves to actually be the culprit.

In the end, you are right - without being able to try them on, it is all about what people have said. You have to make your best guess and go with it. I wish you luck.

Height and weight were just not valid points.

[zoltan]

Maybe you don't like UPZ boots but other people do. Maybe it's attitudes and ignorant comments like yours that have caused people like Bordy and YYZ Canuck to not bother with this site anymore.

Crap! Have we lost Bordy as well?

[kipstar]

I had an off-piste guide (who was pally with a shop) persuade me to dump my comfortable ski boots to improve my carving with an evaluation of the real McCoy - hard snowboard boots (dunno what make).

I had shin bang/burn after a couple of hours, that ended up ruining the rest of my week (5 days). Nothing really visible, but it wasn't half painful.

I wonder if it's because I tended to lean my shins into the boots?

One of the reasons I went to soft boots was because of my bad experience.

If I'm a heavy guy, am I going to find that this is an intrinsic problem to hardboots?

Any hardboots in particular that tend to cause shin pain? Ones to avoid or veer towards?

[NB My first attempt at posting to this thread didn't turn up - apologies if it turns up later]

if you were riding like you do in ski boots, then probably yes. Snowboard hard boots are a lot softer, so you kind of need to lock your calf muscles more so your heel comes up rather than just leaning into the cuff mechanism.

Also...it almost is always with your back leg shin; so starting a bit easy and checking that the sock isn't bunched up or doing strange things can help as well once things start to hurt.

My problem was that the first day was man made snow with a light dusting of rain then frozen over, so it was very very firm; plus I don't have that much feeling in my shins anyway; by the time I realised I was going to hurt, I was looking like the lovely pic you see here today in this thread.

[bobdea]

"yeah, avoid UPZ until you really know what you need, don't mind doing a ton of boot work and love discomfort."

I've had Deelux, Burton and UPZ boots and the UPZ's are the best fit of all for me. I haven't tried the Head boots because Head Canada didn't come through with their order, boots ordered in the summer and promised delivery, but no boots.
Maybe you don't like UPZ boots but other people do. Maybe it's attitudes and ignorant comments like yours that have caused people like Bordy and YYZ Canuck to not bother with this site anymore.
Sorry having a bad day and needed to vent and stupid comments like this just p*** me off.

ohh, you're cool, sorry for making Bordy and Dave leave both of them were totally my fault, why don't you check the threads that rubbed them the wrong way prior to making a ignorant comment.
You're the ignorant one here, do a search of my posts of why I don't like UPZ boots, since you probably won't I'll give you the condensed version
1 UPZs in some sizes don't fit in some intec bindings such as the intec TD1
2 They come with a liner that is very low quality that is useless to many of us here, many of us here think this that have these boots
3 The cuff alignment mechanism is cheesy, not as bad the pre AF series raichle/deeluxe boots and the pre '99 burton stuff but compared to the AF, fire and stratos it's not as well thought out
4 the toe blocks should probably be T-nutted
5 a little rubber on the toe blocks would be nice so you don't break your leg while walking in them.
6 the placement of the hole for the intec cable is too close to the center of the heel pocket, making that area of the boot that much narrower and a huge pain in the ass to fix, this issue is one that I've not had with any other boot and others have expressed the same thing to me.
7 when flex the boot forward the buckles collide, not that this boot has much forward travel in the first place which is not a bad thing if you don't think that you'd miss it but for most people they would be better off having the option to limit it by putting in a stiffer spring or cranking the nut down on the spring.

my comments on these boots may have rubbed you the wrong way but I have damn good reasons for making the suggestions that I do with them.
Out of the box they are probably the hardest to deal with for someone trying to dial in their gear but don't have allot of experience doing so.
John, you clearly have a good idea of what you need and you mentioned putting Lange liners in your UPZs so for you the UPZs work great and that's fine. I could of made mine work too, if I had decided to make them my primary boots I'd have probably put a tongued ski boot liner in them as well, the thing is that I'd not feel right about telling someone who is not ready to deal with some of the not so obvious issues with the boots in question.
In all there are less headaches for most people with the other two brands in particular in the area of fit with the boots that come with the thermoflex liner.
All you had to say was that you thought I was wrong and say so in a articulate way, I realize that I was not articulate in my first post but I did not feel I needed to be.

[bobdea]

You guys took my post like I was saying that the boots work for no one, not the case at all they just have some issues that are a pain.
I was simply stating that for many people there are multiple reasons why the UPZ may be harder to deal with than other boots and there are drawbacks to them some of which are arguable and others that are not.
the thing is that most people are not willing to deal with all the BS or they get boots that don't work and if they're a beginner they get a bad first impression of the experience.
Who the **** wants to buy a boot and find out that they don't fit into one of the most common step in bindings out there?

The UPZ is the shizzle if you throw out the liners and spend another $130 to $400 on some after market liners and do a couple other things to the shells but there are only a select few of you that want to deal with that when head or deeluxe probably would of worked fine in most cases.
There are some other stock liner options available for the UPZs I guess but they are apparently not available in north america, if they are Dan must of forgot because I remember asking if there were.

[Phil]

Bob,

I certainly hope that you know I respect your opinion. I certainly do not want to be part of these bitch sessions that have been prevalent on BOL of late. We have both been around long enough to know that. I just have not found the same problems with any of my (or my friends, students, or acquaintances') UPZ boots. Of course, some of the problem sounds like it may be size specific, ie. the buckles interfering with the flex, and the trouble fitting into bindings.

Actually, the toe block is probably worse than you think now. It IS t-nutted, but the bolts actually stick out further than the toe pad, so now you walk on the bolts under the toe! My older ones had the same hard toe block, but at least the bolts did not stick out.

As far as the cuff, the liner, and the intec hole placement, I have never had a problem with any of them, and I have only heard a couple people on here complain about it.

I am not saying that the liner is GREAT, but for me, and a lot of others, it is acceptable and even comfortable.

Either way, boots are boots. I am glad people are buying hardboots - especially to replace ski boots.

I want UPZ to keep a good business, though, so I can always replace my boots with the same thing when they wear out.;)

[Blackbird]

OK, thanks for advising against UPZ. I've plumped for a pair of Deeluxe Indys from http://www.blue-tomato.at (http://www.blue-tomato.at/)

I will cross my fingers my shins don't end up like the thread starter's.

I must say, I had this idea that Mondo size was supposed to be universal, and now I find nearly every manufacturer interprets it slightly differently.

If I round down my foot measurement of 276 I end up at Mondo 27.5 (UK size 8 when I'm size 10). I hope taking a stab at 28 is going to work - though I would have otherwise plumped for 28.5.

Funny you say that... I'm mondo 27.5... but that size kills me in Hardboots..I rock 28.5 and they are perfect with a little bit of heel work on the outside of the liner.... Plenty wide and excellent heel hold.....Hmmmm Kinda funny that

[bobdea]

Phil, it's not really you who pissed me off
even if my problems were size specific that reinforces what I am saying, the boots have a odd shell shape and results with them are inconsistant.
I am not the only one who feels this way, I have asked a certain vendor why they don't stock them and I got a similar answer about this.

[John H]

Phil, I'm obviously the one who pissed off Bob. I just don't think anyone should blatantly critisize a product that many people use and are very happy with.

Bob, I never said you personally were responsible for the departure of Bordy and Dave. I stated that it was comments like yours that can cause people to get upset.

And yes I've been on this site a long time, even though that shouldn't make any difference to how people react, and I've seen a lot of very knowledgable people leave due to "poorly worded" responses and silly arguments.

Sorry if I pissed you off, it wasn't you I'm pissed at, it is the general commentary of late on this board that I'm getting ticked off with.

[Mike T]

I just don't think anyone should blatantly criticize a product that many people use and are very happy with.


Why not?

If someone is unhappy with something, they have every right to say so and explain why. Readers can decide what to do with the information themselves.

I for one want to make an informed decision before I buy. For any given product I expect some people to love it and some people to hate it and a lot of people to think it's "pretty good" or "OK". I want to hear all sides of the story. I found Bob Dea's comments to be very useful; I like a lot of forward flex in my boots so I would definitely try before I buy knowing about his experiences. I wish I had done that with Heads because I had the same issue with them. I've "blatantly criticized" the Heads before (or maybe I simply listed my personal issues with them - I guess it's all in the wording?) even though I know a ton of people like the Heads better than any other boot. I didn't like them. And I think I'm entitled to my opinion on Heads and Bob is entitled to his opinion on UPZ.

[John H]

Mike,

I agree if they explain why they don't like something thats fine but that was not the case here.

[dano]

Everybody got one.

If someone wants to take the time to offer ANY opinion, long or short, right or wrong, its up to the reader to weed through it and decide for themselves.
Any idiot knows you take personal opinions with a grain of salt AND MOVE ON.

I'm getting pretty embarrassed for some of you losers. CONSTANTLY whining, needing to get the last word in...grow up bitches or better yet, get lost and post it on Rants and Raves. This thread started great, ( it even had gore pics !) but it's turned into a Raging PMS sewing circle.

BTW, If a few bad reviews of your product on a message board puts you out of business, then your product sucked anyway.

[lamby]

This is such a great thread!:biggthump

[Gleb]

NateW-Foam sounds like it would work if i had to go back to my stock liners. The Thermoflex have alot of volume right now and more foam wouldnt be neccessary, I hope.

Blackbird-my socks go to my knees as well. They are mostly nylon and I didn't realize how abbrasive they really are.


kipstar-im using the newskin stuff like its going out of style. The shin is starting to heal and it looks like scarring is inevitable.

philw-no swelling that i know of but good idea.

Crosbie-hopefully you'll have better luck with yours. Odds are, you'll be fine. Just look through all the advice peoeple gave here.

Ursle-I'm doing a combo of both now. Bob Dea is working on dialing me in, but the conditions havent been favorable enough to actually carve without smashing your nose on the ice.

Dano-its your idea and the first one on the list for the party. I'm thinking...plain ol' wonderbread will do fine. Hopefully the eggs don't hatch in there during the party though. I'm so not ready to give birth.

I loved my winds too, but they were too small for me.

Willy-The A1 would work great but i think its going to be a little dry. I defintly over cooked it. I'm working the forward lean out with my new liner.

Bobby buggs-hope you and no one really has to experience something like this. Its my fault for ignoring the pain. I still think its worth it because I wouldn't have gotten a thermoflex until much later on if it wasnt for this.

Neuffy-i don't think the bulking up will help since my shin will still remain thin no matter what. On my Burton Winds, i liked using my ankles in combination with my shins, so there wasn't too much pressure on the shin. Having a hard time doing that with my curent set up but i'll figure it out soon.



Gleb - you rode for 11 hours? I ride for five and I'm bagged. Your girlfriends must be very lucky girls. :D

Its true, but you also gotta consider that the longest run at the mountain i was at is only 1000 ft vertical which leads to a max of a 2 minute run and a 5 minute ride up. I was able to maintain my quads by inline skating all summer long as well as having to walk up an enormous hill a few times a day to go to and from class. Also, wrestling helped build up the stamina in high school. Dating a wrestler has its advantages :biggthump

Serious-I know what you mean now, but also pretty hesitant to cut my boot. If all else fails, that what i'll go for.

I got my liners molded to me by mike at the wachusett shop. Can't wait for the liners to pack out a bit so I can be in total comfort. My shin felt great because of all the volume the t-flex liner has in general. With all that extra volume, it was kind of weird to feel so restricted but I was able to apply more force to the edges, especially the heelside. The conditons were pretty aweful to actually completly test the liners out, but so far I'm happy. I'm going to change my sock to something less abrasive.

As always, the community which i've grown to love over this short year has come through with all the help I could handle. You guys and gals are great.

[Gleb]

As far as the argument goes...I think everyone has valid points. I don't have much experience with boots at all, but these boots do require some work, at least for me.

I have noticed that the middle buckle sometimes collided with the one above it when flexed enough, but I havent had the chance to push my boots hard enough for that to be a problem. The full plastic toe is a problem but I got cat tracks (http://www.snowshack.com/seirus-cattracks.html) to help with that.

Most problems with the boot is fixable, but if I didn't have the asistance from many of you (bschurman, BobDea, as well as many others), I would have never been able to figure it out quite right.

My favorite thing about the boots is that I can change them into my ski boots while I'm on a lunch break. That is the main reason I got the boots because I like a little diversity in my day.

Also, I have a wide foot and these boots are perfect for just that. I'm pretty nuetral on whether I'd reccomend these boots to others who have the same know-how as I do. As in phil's case and I'm sure for many, many others, the boots works right out of the box perfectly. Once I get used to the stiffness and pack out the thermoflex a little but, I think this boot will kick some serious ass.

[willywhit]

This is such a great thread!:biggthump
boots that make your riding a painful experience. :mad: sweet !
Dano had been battling boots with several heel blisters that were gnarly and painful. He came over yesterday with some fresh burton winds that look legit.
Nordica SBH's are good backup boots,too.I've been a big fan of softer looser boots(SBH race) and a softer surfy board (PureCarve 175) and flat Burton race plates. Gonna step up and ride the TD1's (3*front, 6* back) on the new Coiler 176(stiffy) and some stiff Burton Reactors. The Uncle Sam boots are the shizz, no matter how much they hurt. :D

[bobdea]

willywhit, before you ride on those reactors allot check out the cuff alingment mechanism, I used to bend those constantly until they changed them in the fire and wind
Just be prepared for it and get a good idea of what you'd need to pop in there to hold it together, I doubt burton still has parts for them however when they did they sent me a bag of 20 of them that I sold with the boots when I got rid of them. I know other people got burton to do the same thing so the parts actually might be still floating around.

[willywhit]

they're not even broken in. Cuff alignment is what exactly ? Just make sure the tongue sits inside and isn't hung up , sits flat. I noticed dano's winds didn't have the power strap on top but they're slotted in back to put one in. I've only run the big reactors on the Burner 197 with Td1's. Really stiff setup but great to go like hell on the Burner when conditions / lack of people permit.
btw, I got those reactors from ski market when they warranteed some broken SBH's and gave me a store credit, like 4 years ago.

[Gleb]

the winds do have power straps but in my opinion, are pretty useless:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/gleb86/HPIM0075.jpg

[bobdea]

it's the spot on ther ankle of the boot that you can put a torx in or a allen wrench I forgot what one you need for those.
what happens is that on the inside of the boot it kind of has a little track it rides in and you can bend the track easily
it's a pain in the ass

[dano]

The cuff adjustment is the height position of the Burton shells' ankle pivot points that the top ( cuff ) of the boot hinges forward and back on. ( There is no cuff adjustment on our beloved Nordica sbh's... which by the way are comfy enough to wear around the house.) One side of the shell has a rigid pivot pin in a hole, but the other side has an allen head in a slot, that when loosened, you can raise or lower the pivot point up or down a few notches, so you can tweak the entire cuff to lean left or right. Helpful for tweaking your "neutral" boot position...kind of a shell cant.

I think what our buddy Battle-Bot Bob is talking about also happened to me on my old reactors.

What happened was the allen loosened by itself enough for it to randomly click from posiition to position by itself under loads. It feels like the boot is busted...If you leave it like this it will wear out the plastic and never tighten right again.

I tried to tighten it, but the cheesy allen stripped right out. So I had to drill a small shallow hole on both sides of the stripped allen hole and tighten it with a big flat screwdriver. It saved my boots life. I bet Bob just got all new pivot hardware instead from soul-less burton.

I've seen rebuild kits for raichles pivots as well...theirs does the same thing with 3 times as many parts.

Geez, Blab much?

[Gleb]

I got my booster straps in the mail this past weekend. I'm psyced to try them out. Thanks for the nice message fin:biggthump My shin is almost all healed up now, no thanks to me working waaaay too much due to the lack of snow. Just no hair in like a square inch of skin.

[RicHard]

Just came back from a week of riding
(http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=13698)
and I had the same problem: on my shin I had a little bit of blood too with a lot of bone-pain (with UPZ boots).
They are very stiff (the black and red ones) and it seems to me that they are less tall (on the shin) than Burton Fire I had. This lead to push the shin in the exact middle (where the leverage is the maximum).
Furthermore, with cold the plastic become a tytanium block... so...
But... i have to admit that I had the wrong setup: after a couple of days of test, I found the right setup and the riding became very comfortable.
So... I think that the most important issue could be the setup: if your setup force you to push the board in a certain way (and just that one), you could feel a lot of pain. Maybe for a too wide stance, maybe for presence or absence of lift/cant... etcetera...
My advice would be to check the setup before blame on the boots...
:-)

[Gleb]

you're probably right, that it does have something to do with my technique. I've tried giving more cant on the heel and a few other things, but nothing seemed to work. The thermoflex liner helped out and tonight, i'll get to try out the booster strap to see if it could add even more comfort.

I was showing my friend your other thread a little while ago. We were so jealous. thanks for the advice and keep on carving!

[RicHard]

you're probably right, that it does have something to do with my technique.
Really.... try to narrow your stance...
Furthermore, I noticed that the tongue of my back upz sometimes was positioning itself in a bad way. Also that leaded me to pain! I noticed it just after a day of riding...
So... many issue to take care ok, but... when everything works fine... what a pleasure!!!

Upz boots are the only one I can carve on a single foot with! So stiff but... so in control! :-)

[Gleb]

I'll give narrowing my stance a shot. Do you mean making angles more extreme (over 60 degrees) or moving my feet closer together?

Carve with one foot?!

[bobdea]

start measuring your stance
there is a formula on the almanac, it's a good GUIDELINE but for me it works perfect
a few other things you can do as well

[RicHard]

I'll give narrowing my stance a shot. Do you mean making angles more extreme (over 60 degrees) or moving my feet closer together?

I reduced the angle (60/53) and reduce the stance.


Carve with one foot?!

Yes... it's a good exercise to practice while you have just the front foot locked... I'm trying it and with upz (due to the fact that you have just one foot making pressure on the whole board) I can do it (ovioulsy, at low speed).
It's important to balance with the back foot in every carve (the back foot moves over the board being always on the side of the carve while the front foot drive the carve).
Low speed!
I saw this done even at high speed (my instructor)... amazing...

[ARCrider]

Just no hair in like a square inch of skin.

Shave your shins up to the top of your boot cuff and try some ski socks. if I don't shave my shins my hair just gets ripped out and chaffes my skin off. not as bad as you did though! and don't tuck your longjohns into your boot. My shins are pretty picky about what socks I wear. I've forgotten my socks before and gone barefoot.
keep some moleskin handy for tender spots
easing into the season can toughen up your shins too. I hope that 11hr day wasn't a season opener.

[Gleb]

I used my Madd with angles in the low 40s the other day my feet havent felt more comfortable in years. I took out the insoles I got to mold into my boot and it felt great.

As for shaving my shins, no need. My shin is almost healed and actually no hair in sight. Rest of my foot seems fine. The 11 hour day was maybe my second day which is good. It forced me to think about my liners early on so the rest of the season will be in total comfort. My thermo liners are finally starting to feel more comfortable than sneakers.

The booster straps worked wonders! Highly recommend them for anyone, even if you don't experience shin bang. When I cranked them up, it really let me drive the board into the ice.