Race Format Question

[Thor VonRippington]

I don't know much if anything about the current race formats... but was wondering when and why the GS turned into PGS. I didn't get to see the SL event last weekend at Copper, but am assuming it was a PSL as well.
Can someone enlighten me? Thanks!

[Kent]

Blame the Olympics for PGS.

SL has basically always been PSL at the World Cup level all the way back to ISF.

USASA is only "parallel" for the Open Div (and some would certainly argue that. :lol: ). Other divisions race side-by-side but still receive combined time (unless the RD want to do his/her own thing).

[philfell]

FIS turned virtually all GS events into PGS events in 2000 to try to make the sport more marketable to TV. But now they have two events that the public really cant tell apart (PGS and PSL) and still TV could care less.

[Rob Stevens]

That was a funny choice by the FIS.

The goal of making things more "interesting" by putting riders head-to-head created courses that had to be pretty equal in both lanes. This resulted in very boring terrain with no natural variances being used.

The last alpine event I was a part of and was truly interested in, was the last single GS at the World Champs in Italy (a few years back). This course had some great rolling, banked terrain and bigger turns that showed good speed and the beauty of carving. It was like a higher speed Baker Banked Slalom.

The "Olympic" format is a bit to robotically left and right for me.

I sure would like to see the FIS go back. If courses were a bit more thought out from the point of view of showcasing the alpine riders ability to turn, using varied terrain to highlight this, we wouldn't look weak when seen on TV, compared to ski racing.

Phils last comment is the kicker though... It doesn't seem to really matter how you dress up alpine, it still draws poor ratings, unless it's the Olympics.

[DiveBomber]

I always wondered, why no DownHill snowboarding? Perhaps with a bit more interesting course then in Skiing. With some actually carving, im sure that would draw alot more fans and really showcase alipine

[philfell]

If you have actually witnessed in person a World Cup Downhill, you'll know instantly why it would be a bad idea for snowboarding.

Super-G was really fun when it was around, I do wish they brough back the two run G.S. format and some Super-G's

[Neil Gendzwill]

I've seen a Ladies world cup DH in person. Very impressive close up. But I don't understand why it couldn't be done on snowboards.

[Thor VonRippington]

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 113688" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>philfell</TD><TD class=alt2>If you have actually witnessed in person a World Cup Downhill, you'll know instantly why it would be a bad idea for snowboarding.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I haven't... why a bad idea?

[LeeW]

dangerous DH is.

[wavechaser]

Super-G was really fun when it was around, I do wish they brough back the two run G.S. format and some Super-G's

Here, here! Scott Palmer set a nice long (around 60 seconds for top riders) two-run single-course USASA GS on North American at Stratton last year and it was Soooo much fun to run it! Plenty of rolls/fallaways and pitch changes.

Phil's right - when you see Hermann or Bode go past you at 70+ or more you get the idea...if you fall and one binding breaks at that speed the board will be a big spinning lever on your other leg and twist it clean off at the knee ( :barf: )...the falls are bad enough in ski racing as it is - people die. Now if we had releasable (sp?) bindings where if one went it triggered the other, then maybe. Skiers also have a wider "track" for balance and recovery at those speeds whereas we are riding a tightrope in comparison.

[Thor VonRippington]

Sometimes the light comes on slowly for me... thanks for the visual

[Thor VonRippington]

But then again... we could probably atract a few million NASCAR fans for the downhill events... they seem to be willing to sit for hours and wait for something to go terribly wrong.

[DiveBomber]

thats why I said something more appropriate for snowboards

[wavechaser]

Sometimes the light comes on slowly for me... thanks for the visual

Another visual - just add hard boots, 190cm baord, helmet and race suit and 70+ mph!

http://www.cloudtenweb.com/snowstuff/dh_snowboard.jpg

[Neil Gendzwill]

Downhill is dangerous, period. I'm trying to think of how many crashes where I've seen a ski actually come off - very very few. They have those suckers cranked up to about DIN 20.

[skategoat]

Remember Stemmle almost getting ripped in half at the Hahnehkamm? #1 worst crash I've ever seen.

[philfell]

The danger factor isn't why it is no good for snowboard. Snowboards just don't make that type of turn (or in this case lack of turn).

[Neil Gendzwill]

We certainly do suck at running a flat base compared to skis. Or did you mean the actual turning part? Can't we put a 40 m sidecut on a snowboard?

[bartron]

Remember Stemmle almost getting ripped in half at the Hahnehkamm? #1 worst crash I've ever seen.
Same here. And the description of his injuries was even scarier.

'later...

[Justin A.]

I personally hate the PGS format, and would love to see the scene go back to two run. I think that PGS is too much like the bastard child of BX. Two-run GS/SL is good enough for ski racing, why did we have to change? It's not like the sport gets any more coverage because of it. As a matter of fact, I went to www.nbcolympics.com to watch videos yesterday, and there were NO PGS videos. A **** load of pipe/BX crap, but no PGS. Sometimes change is good, as in the adoption of X-Ball in paintball, but PGS is a curse.

[wavechaser]

Hate? Bastard Child? Curse? Pipe/BX crap?

Justin my man - tell us how you REALLY feel!! :lol:

Actually, I couldn't agree with you more...probably in part because of my ski racing roots. At least in USASA most of the regional races are two-run single course, but they are generally too short in my opinion. Twenty to thirty seconds is just not a real race. A nice 50 second plus GS over some turns and rolls in the trail - covering 1000+ vertical feet - would be sooooo nice! The USASA southern VT series held one like that (no trail turns though) on North American last January and it rocked!

I don't even like the paralell (sp?) format at the USASA Nationals, even though it is not knock-out format - they say it is because of the number of riders but we finished our race days by 1pm at the latest...I guess they need time to tabulate the results before nightly awards, but ski racing seems to get it done OK with large fields.

[Justin A.]

LOL so maybe I got a little carried away there. I do like BX, and Pipe does make for good televison (if it's good pipe, but then so does racing...). I still stand by the hatred of PGS, and that it is the bastard child of BX. I mean...at least in BX there are features rather than a slope, and there's always the possibility of a pileup. PGS just doesn't do it for me. I was just in a mood earlier since I had to wait in line at town hall for 20 minutes while some guy registered a fleet of cars, and some other guy babbled at his wife about how cell phones are the root of all evil, meanwhile I just need to register one car and there was a third woman sitting behind her window looking at the line and doing nothing about it :angryfire .

Our NH USASA series does two-run format races. Two seasons ago they did one at Sunapee that was about 700 vertical feet, with a trail turn and a few natural rollers. Lets just say that the trail they chose wouldn't exactly be my first choice for freeriding, which made for an AWESOME race. I think it was about a 40 second race or so.

I swear, I'm not opinionated though.

[wavechaser]

I raced with you guys at all three alpine events last year - Loon on a different trail than they had planned, Cranmore in the rain (nasty day), and Ragged on that flat trail - but NH USASA runs their events VERY well and considering the bad snow season we had last year they did a great job.

What trail was the race on at Sunapee? Thatz where I learned to ski (yes ski) back in 1968. Flying Goose was a GREAT race trail before they widened it and added "Goose Bumps". We used to ski race on Eggbeater and Hansen-Chase too.

[Justin A.]

Yeah, the races are run very smoothly and they are well set. My only complaint is that the GS courses are VERY tight, but still managable. Maybe I should bring a board with a smaller sidecut next time.

The trail at sunapee was Lower Flying Goose, and it was a ball. When we were there upper and lower gooses were both groomed, which was nice. Sunapee is a nice mountain, just too crowded on the weekends.

Where are you from anyway? Any interest in hitting bretton woods tomorrow? My girlfriend and I are going out for the first day of our season, Im UBER pumped. Maybe we could hook up for a few runs on their trail.

[wavechaser]

Thanks Justin - I'd take you up on your offer but I'm having some medical/health issues right now that I'm trying to solve before racing season starts on the 16th!

I'm at Sugarbush in VT, but I raced alpine (Men's Legends) at USASA series all over the Northeast last winter.

I agree with you about the tightness of the NH GS courses. I think that is the problem with a lot of USASA races, especially when they run a Slalom and a GS in the same day. They set a slalom, then pull it and set a GS using the same start and finish, when it would really be best to make the GS a longer vertical drop. The race trails at Cranmore and Loon were barely wide enough for a real GS and we were roped off to the left on that hill at Ragged. The Maine series at Shawnee and the Southern VT Series were the only regional series' that set different course lengths based on discipline last winter.

Back in my day (here we go again) Flying Goose was a tight twisty "blue circle" (that dates me, huh?) trail - but it is still the steepest consistent pitch at Sunapee, which is not saying much I know.

[Justin A.]

How about thursday LOL. We went up to bretton woods today, and it was great. They only had 2 runs open, but they were variable enough from run to run to still be interesting. The snow was a mix of 'taters and hardpack, which made for some good carving after the first runs of the season. Boy am I tired from dealing with the chop though. Overall, it was an excellent day, too bad you missed it. Just so you know, we're all going to be up at cannon :biggthump :biggthump :biggthump tues-thurs of next week, and probally stay another night and hit Attitash's free day on friday. Again, any other carvers are more than welcome to join in on the riding.

[wavechaser]

Thanks for the invites, but really the only time I go to NH is for the races...it's just too long a trip with Sugarbush five minutes away and Stowe/Smuggs and Killington less than an hour. I have a pass at Sugarbush too so I'm a weenie when it comes to paying elsewhere - bad enought the entry fees I have to pay for the CVT series races ($90 per day). I'll be training for the first weekend of races 12/16-17 next week too...I guess I consider this fun?!?! :cool:

[Justin A.]

LOL Touche. I hate paying to go elsewhere when I have a pass too. I don't blame you at all. Especially with the haul from 'Bush. Good luck with the training! Is it 2 run format that you guys do or is it st00ped PGS?

[wavechaser]

Almost all the regional USASA SL/GS are single set, two-run format, but in my opinion often too short. Scott at the SVT series ran a Dual GS last year at Bromley, but it was timed for the official results, not KO PGS format - then they took the top 16 racers afterwards in a KO PGS format just for kicks. The Nationals were timed paralell courses for the age groups, but may have been PGS KO for the Open Class - they've done that in the past.

[timinor]

I'm coming late to this thread and want to go back to the original question about race format. My experience goes back to the early 90s. Snowboard racing was commendered by the USSA ski racing coaches and organization. They mindlessly set GS and SL courses exactly like ski racing courses. It was ridiculous.

I remember a World Cup GS race at Mt. Bachelor. It came down Thunderbird run which is bowl shaped on both sides. The course was set down the middle and did not use the terrain. It certainly did not showcase what can be done on a carving board and actually forced riders to do a sliding turn to control their speed in the steepest section. The slaloms were set too tight to be able to carve a turn.

I was in shock to see that. There was so much terrain to use and banked turns and opportunities for controling speed with traverses instead of sliding a turn...the people running those races had no idea what carving a board was all about.

When my buddies and I first started carving we got some bamboo and set a course down a run that had lots of terrain. We had learned to carve on that little hill so we knew how we liked to layout turns. We set the course just like that with some banks and longer traverses and variety. We had a ball and did that all afternoon. Some people saw us from the chair and told us that it really looked cool. Since then, I've never seen a snowboard race even come close to capturing what a hardbooter can do.

The unfortunate thing is that most snowboard races make hardbooting look like something that can't perform as well as skiing.

As far as crowd appeal goes or TV interest, it is as if you took a road racing motorcycle to the Indy 500 and wondered why it was boring to watch.

What a carving board does best is layout a complete "C" shaped turn and come completely out of the fall-line. The racing courses should express that. Sadly, they don't.

[wavechaser]

A really nice banked GS would be way cool - great perspective on a whole different idea about racing snowboards! :cool: