Do you grease the threads on your TD2 bolts?

[johnstewart]

Trying to find the answer to the best way to mount my TD2 hardware.

Flamey original thread here:
http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=12869

I am perhaps just tightening too much; when I release them it does seem like the metal is binding/seizing.

Does anyone grease their threads? Do you just use them dry (and perhaps not crank as hard as I am)?

I'm not enamoured with using loctite because I fiddle with them too much.

johnS

[thomas_m]

When mine bind, it's not the threads, it's the heads, especially on the intec heel receivers. I use a bit of Pedro's on the underside of the head and it's become a non-issue.

T.

[Galen]

One of the things I've noticed with all bindings is when you mount them a room temp, they can seem a little loose after riding a bit. Conversly, when I fiddle with them on the hill, they are quite tight when I fiddle with them again at room temp. I'll be using some B-Butter on the heads this year to see if I can get rid of that initial creaking sound when loosening the bolts.

[johnstewart]

So you mean the head of the bolt is seizing against the TD2 plate, and it's not the threads? Interesting; I hadn't considered that.

thanks

[Randy T.]

John,

Do not grease the threads just the tapered part of the head where you have the metal to metal contact.
I use the bomber butter for this.
get your butter here (http://www.bomberonline.com/store/accessories/bomber_butter.cfm)

[Jon Dahl]

The tapered part of the bolt head, mounting the top plate to the base plate. If I remember correctly, the anodizing on the top and the stainless bolt try to sieze together, when you loosen watch them carefully, you may actually see a spark from loosening it! DO NOT do that to the threads themselves.

[Steve Dold]

I actually smell smoke when I loosen these screws sometimes. It's real interesting. I just re-read the thread where Bob Jenny says to use grease on both the threads and head to prevent corrosion. Bob, do you still advise this?

[bobdea]

suggests that, I sprayed down my TD1 screws with this PTFE grease that goes on thin but thickens after a couple of people said to try it
it certainly did not make things worse and I do not remember losing bolts after that
that season I had a few come loose and rattle out prior to greasing them

[Sinecure]

I'm like Steve. I smell a scent that's like gunpowder when I loosen the bolts on the top plate.

I'm thinking that a bit of bomber butter on those "ramps" (if that's the word) would be good.

[Mike T]

I'm like Steve. I smell a scent that's like gunpowder when I loosen the bolts on the top plate.

I'm thinking that a bit of bomber butter on those "ramps" (if that's the word) would be good.

I Bomber Butter the top plate->cant/disk bolt heads and it generally prevents the gunpowder smell. I've never greased the center disk -> board bolts since I've never had problems with them loosening or being tough to back out. I use a T-wrench but tighten with my left hand (I'm right handed) and that seems to get me the desired torque.

On non-greased top plate -> cant disk bolts, I've literally seen sparks when loosening them.

[ecnalubma]

I do grease the threads,(and the tapers) I know someone on here will fibrilate at the statement but, in working on bikes everything gets greased before assembly, so I just carried that over to my boards.

[D-Sub]

dead certain that fin said grease the threads.

[Jack Michaud]

So you mean the head of the bolt is seizing against the TD2 plate, and it's not the threads? Interesting; I hadn't considered that.

thanks

Yes, and furthermore, the head of the bolt gives you a false torque. Some people grease just the heads and some grease the whole enchilada. They have their reasons, but I just can't bring myself to grease the threads. It may be the right thing to do, but it makes about as much sense to me as the fact that hot water can freeze faster than cold water. It's true, but I still don't believe it.

[Phil]

I do grease the threads,(and the tapers)...in working on bikes everything gets greased before assembly, so I just carried that over to my boards.

ditto

[chadx]

Wow, Jack! I never thought I'd see a reference to the Mpemba effect (pronounced oom-pem'-buh for those curious) that states in certain conditions, hot water can freeze faster than cooler water.:biggthump
http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/hot_water.html

I've started putting bomber butter on the head (not threads) and it seems to help tremendously. I can't really see any reason NOT to put it on the threads (considering how threads work, this shouldn't be an issue), but I just never have because the bit 'o butter around the head seemed to cure the false-torquing drag felt by the head rubbing against the plate.

Still, check all your bolts each morning. I've only had a bolt come loose once. It was on my way down the mountain (luckily just loose and not completely off) and it scared the crap out of me considering what a wreck that could've become. That was the only warning I needed and now check all the bolts each morning rather than 'whenever I get around to it'.

[alexeyga]

It is not a bad idea to use any kind of anti-seize compound on your threads just to keep them healthy and to avoid occasional "stripped heads" topics in the forum... No WD40 though!!!

[Steve Dold]

I'm with Jack, intuitively it seems strange to lube threads because you'd think the threads would slip. But thread friction prevents this. If you don't lose preload, you don't lose friction, and the bolt doesn't loosen. I always use the T-wrench.

I read somewhere that most people tighten small bolts/nuts too much and large ones not enough. I don't know if it applies here but I thought it was interesting.

[dano]

Great stuff! thanks!

[Chris Houghton]

35 inch pounds if you grease the taper only, and up to 45 inch pounds for a non lubricated poor alignment dirty thread without lube. That's what I come up with after fooling with the bolts and my torque wrench, evaluating the typical installation with a T wrench. Of course the applied torque works out to be the same, lower torque with less resistance equals the same applied torque. Your mileage may vary. Remember 3 threads minimum engagement, and that is REALLY minimum on the edge of dangerous. And this only applies to taper head stainless Allen bolts fastening the binding plate to the board.

[johnstewart]

35 inch pounds if you grease the taper only, and up to 45 inch pounds for a non lubricated poor alignment dirty thread without lube. That's what I come up with after fooling with the bolts and my torque wrench, evaluating the typical installation with a T wrench. Of course the applied torque works out to be the same, lower torque with less resistance equals the same applied torque. Your mileage may vary. Remember 3 threads minimum engagement, and that is REALLY minimum on the edge of dangerous. And this only applies to taper head stainless Allen bolts fastening the binding plate to the board.

Awesome; thanks!

You're so getting sued, dude. =)

[JLH]

Applying grease to any bolted joint reduces the friction between the mating threads of the bolt and nut thus increasing the tension in the bolt causing it stretch more than when the same torque was applied to a dry joint. If you are not careful you will cause the bolt to fail or strip out the nut. Good advice to reduce your torque if you lube your threads.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

The only way to really know if your applied torque is correct is through testing. Torque charts are for reference so unless you have thirty bolts and t-nuts and torque them to failure, record the torque and plug the information into a formula to get the correct torque or have access to a device that measures clamp load and bolt tension you just guessing based on personal experience of your past failures of over tightening or under tightening a joint. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Grease, oil, lock-tite or other petroleum distillates can eat into plastic, caution. Lock-tite is a documented no, no. Grease, oil or bomber butter?<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The smoke you see or smell is corrosion between the stainless steel bolts to the aluminum cant disk. The corrosion bond is broken when you loosen the joint. When your board gets wets the water acts as a conductor to allow current to flow, causing corrosion between two dissimilar metals.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

Personally I do not apply grease or oil. I check my bindings every day, before I ride, and during breaks. At the end of the day I loosen the bolts and let the assembly dry in the hotel room and then reassemble in the morning or late evening when the joint is dry. I use a “T” handle to tighten the joint, until the desired twist in the “T” wrench is obtained, a torque wrench would be better but I don’t have one. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

If you want to really piss off your buddy, the next time you help him rotate his tires, grease his rusty hub bolts and hub nuts, crank up the air pressure, set the impact wrench to max and see how long it takes before he necks off the hub bolt. What is ironic is that most joints require some lubrication to ensure the bolted joint is consistently tightened to the correct tension and corresponding torque.

Always research what your read on-line as most posting are full of .......<o:p></o:p>

[D-Sub]

god I love it when people don't post condescending responses. Especially ones edited in office that end up with smileys all over.

I'll say this again:

dead certain that fin recommends greasing the threads. Or, as dead certain as my addled brain can be.

come on, Fin...where are you?

[kennyusmc]

Good 'ole synthetic grease does fine in protecting the bolts and threads. I don't think Fin and his design partner took on the creation and liabilty of the bindings without a little industrial engineering. Now if we have a mechanical engineer , or a master machinest i would love their input.


I like anti-seize:

Like an example would be placing some anti-seize on the bolts that go into a Tittanium combustion dome of an M1a1 Tank turbine ( gets just a few degres hot ) and that might prevent some siezing of bolts.
Corrosion bond
that is a nice term , did you invent it ? Try electrolysis

From a few people who make anit seize.
Look below this is why anit seize is ofte used used:?




Anti-Seize provides protection from electrolysis, which can cause seizing of the thread and stripping when dissimilar elements, such as steel bolts in aluminum blocks or steel spark plugs in aluminum heads, are in contact with each other.

Another thing anti seize does "Anti-Seize is ideal for all threaded connections that are subject to heat, corrosion, or repeated assembly and disassembly..." since you take yours apart daily you might want to reconsider that bolt stretching theory.

Another choice might be molybdenum disulfide which is used on a few rapid moving parts like the rotary on a Light Armored Vehicle 25mm Bushmaster Cannon ...watchout this stuff stains.

[Steve Dold]

I don't think there is anything bad about using lube or anti-sieze in fasteners as long as the reduced friction (especially with anti-sieze) is compensated for by using less torque.

Actually the more I think about it the better lubing everything (heads and thread) sounds, because it'll reduce the wear on the hex sockets and tools and make it easier to get the preload needed to keep the parts from sliding in shear. After thinking about it this morning, I am starting to believe 100% that the bolt loosening in bindings has nothing to do with thread friction, but is caused by shearing loads causing the plates to slip, making the thread mating surfaces and bolt heads move, causing an off-torque. If the bolt tension/preload (not torque) is sufficient, this shouldn't happen (the plates shouldn't move with respect to each other). If the plates don't slide with respect to each other, I don't think there is any way the bolts can loosen because with enough preload on the bolt, it doesn't see any changing tensile force when the board is ridden. It should no more loosen on the mountain than it would sitting in the living room.

[paappraiser]

locktight is bad?!

What did I miss here?

[Steve Dold]

Many people think it softens the material around the inserts in at least some brands of boards. I didn't think it was a problem before, but I finally did notice it in a board that I used locktite on.

[paappraiser]

Ive been using locktit for years no problem.....

Fin ? Fin? What do you say here on what should be done?

I cant get into greasing a bolt... but then, my mechanic lightly greases the bolts on my tires before installing them. (waterproof grease) ... they have never come of in all the years I have been going to him.

[Derf]

I don't thnik Loctite is a problem with metal, but I've seen it eat through the 3D disks on my first generation Burton Freestyle bindings. I posted a picture a few years ago on the forum, but I don't know where the disks are right now.

[peter_x]

I don't understand this concept of "false torque"

In my mind, the only thing that applying grease to the heads does is transfer the friction from there to the threads. Possibly, for other reasons, it matters where this friction is. But friction is friction.

So why do you torque a bolt less/more when you have applied grease?

[Steve Dold]

As a bolt becomes tight, the majority of effort turning the wrench is in overcoming head and thread friction. In one engine book I have, it says that for a given torque, about 50% of the friction (when nearly tight) is from the head friction, 40 is from the thread friction, and 10% is from the inclined-plane effect that is putting the actual tension into the bolt. If you lube the threads and/or head, and put the same force (torque) on the bolt, more of the torque tranlates into tension on the bolt, and you might exceed the yield point.

When a company says "Torque to X in-pounds" they specify what lube, if any, should be used because it changes the amount of torque that should be applied to get the right tension, which is what really matters. Torque is only used because there is no easy way to measure tension.

[MUD]

Howdy,
I would say get in touch with Bomber and go with what they suggest. They have done a bit of testing and know these bindings better than anyone. Fin is VERY good at replying to e-mails.

I am not going to post anything I can't back-up with data. (yes, I am an engineer)

If you would like to research it, here is a good source; Engineers edge. (http://www.engineersedge.com/fastener_thread_menu.shtml)

As far as Loc-tite, they make TONS of versions. They make some for composites, it is just hard to get.

If one is going to post that something is "well documented", please provide a link to this documentation.

[roman]

all i do is adding a drop blue loctite to the threads only. never became a loose screw or even loosed one:biggthump. btw, i use phiokka/virus freeflex plates.

[Steve Dold]

Thanks for the link, MUD. The site gives an interesting equation: T=.2DF, where T=torque (in-pounds), D=bolt diameter, F=tension desired in pounds. Thread pitch isn't even even mentioned. Is this because the inclined-plane action of the threads is nearly insignificant compared to thread and head friction? MUD, if you have some insight, we would welcome it. We will not ask you to post anything that you cannot back up with data :)


If one is going to post that something is "well documented", please provide a link to this documentation.Here's where I found the 50/40/10% ratio: Sacramento Skyranch engineering manual, http://www.sacskyranch.com/pubsem.htm

[MUD]

Thanks for the link, MUD. The site gives an interesting equation: T=.2DF, where T=torque (in-pounds), D=bolt diameter, F=tension desired in pounds. Thread pitch isn't even even mentioned. Is this because the inclined-plane action of the threads is nearly insignificant compared to thread and head friction? MUD, if you have some insight, we would welcome it. We will not ask you to post anything that you cannot back up with data :)

Here's where I found the 50/40/10% ratio: Sacramento Skyranch engineering manual, http://www.sacskyranch.com/pubsem.htm

Hey Steve,
That is an interesting question....... I have to think about it a little, but I think your thought is correct. They have oversimplified that equation a little if you ask me. But in practice, it's probably all you need. In most of my reading fine threads are stronger due to the higher cross sectional area, as seen here. (http://www.engineersedge.com/thread_strength/thread_tensile_stress_area.htm)
But that is about it. They have other qualities, but they a mute here.

My comment about backing up what you say was actually more directed at JLH, he made some off the cuff comment about Loc-tite, which I would like to see that data on.

NICE LINK!!! That's a cool one. It's always great to find these. Take a look around the EE site, it has some great materials based info as well.

[C5 Golfer]

The logical side of me says if you want your screws to loosen after a day or two of riding then grease the threads of the bolts, if you want them to stay tightened for the season then leave them dry.

Also, same logic applies to lug bolts or nuts that hold the wheels on your car, with that, I hope you do not grease the threads or the mating surfaces of those fasteners. But check your owners manual, I bet they say "no lube"

Discount Tire Installation guide , item #6 says specifically "do not Lube"

[Phil]

The logical side of me says if you want your screws to loosen after a day or two of riding then grease the threads of the bolts, if you want them to stay tightened for the season then leave them dry.


I've been doing it for years and have only had my bolts come loose once (anomoly?). In fact, I have assembled and serviced bikes this way for years as well. I have never had a problem. It is also a lot cheaper than using loctite.

I don't know if it has been mentioned (too lazy to go back), but using Loctite will void the warranty on some boards.

[Dr D]

I love this stuff man:biggthump


This is where new ideas happen!
And old ones over and over. :freak3: I will go with the manufacturers "Enginmaneer" on this one. Torqueing wood to spec never made sense to me anyway. Some sort of antiseize is a given, at least to any body who has ever done maintainance on military gear with aluminum parts. gallons of that nasty black goo are gone thru daily. I think its petroleum jelly saturated with moly and its impossible to get it off of you after.
bomber butter is better:1luvu: :1luvu: :1luvu: